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Episode 6: Do You Want to Die?

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WORLD Radio - Episode 6: Do You Want to Die?

After Palm Garden Convalescent Center blocks Michael's attempt to end Terri's life, all goes quiet on the legal front. But then a key figure enters the case, a lawyer whose personal—and spiritual—mission is centered on the right to die.


SFX: POLICE CHATTER 

For all of March 2005, the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office has been on high alert. For six weeks, Judge George Greer has been under police protection. Greer is the probate judge who ordered Terri’s feeding tube removed.

GEORGE GREER: We had details of undercover deputy sheriffs at our home 24/7. They took us wherever we went.

Detectives open Greer’s mail and monitor his phone calls, on the lookout for new threats. They patrol his home, the courthouse, and the house where Michael lives.

GEORGE GREER: I wore a bulletproof vest when I wasn't in the courthouse and wasn't at home. When I walked the dog, I wore a bulletproof vest.

Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube has been out for two days. With the Schiavo case splashed across headlines from here to Timbuktu, activists on both sides are agitating for action.

SFX: AOL AUDIO DIAL UP

And some…are making criminal threats. Somewhere in the United States, a user logs onto America online. The user, whose name is JIMBO037000, has a plan to save Terri Schiavo. A couple of plans, actually.

In a chat room, Jimbo first proposes a payout of one million dollars. The money will go to Michael Schiavo…if he’ll agree to divorce Terri and walk away. If Michael won’t do that, Jimbo has another plan: Ask Terri if she wants a divorce, …and get her to nod her head in response.

If that doesn’t work, there’s always Plan C. Jimbo types the details into the chatroom message app.

Plan C also involves a million dollars. Jimbo will give it to any “good Samaritan” who’s willing to track down Michael Schiavo and Judge George Greer…and take them out.

LAWLESS THEME 

From WORLD Radio, and the creative team that brings you The World and Everything in It: This is Lawless.

I’m New York Times bestselling author and WORLD Magazine senior writer Lynn Vincent.

Lawless is a new true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life: That not every crime is against the law.

In America, the essential value of being human has eroded to the point that what once would have been prosecuted as a crime is now unexceptional. Even celebrated.

Hello, and welcome back to Lawless—this is our first day back after that long, strange break I explained in our last two episodes.

Finally, we’re back with the final three episodes of Season 1 of the Terri Schiavo story.

And now, Episode 6, “Do You Want to Die?”

SFX: BIRDS, OUTDOOR SOUNDS

In August 1997, Mary Schindler walks out to the mailbox. The past few years have been quiet on the legal front…a kind of limbo.

Terri has been living at Palm Garden Convalescent Center, receiving basic care…but no rehab. On two different occasions—in 1993 and 1995— Terri has come down with an infection, and Michael has tried to deny her antibiotics. But both times, nursing home staff went against his wishes and treated Terri anyway. In 1993, the Schindlers had fought Michael for Terri’s guardianship, but a judge ruled against them. Unsure what to do next, they’ve just been waiting.

But now, the other shoe is about to drop.

SFX: MAILBOX OPENING

Mary opens her mailbox and…

MARY: It was just shock.

LYNN: Shock.

MARY: Yeah, absolutely.

Inside the mailbox, Mary finds a letter. It’s from a stranger. An attorney named George Felos. He writes that Michael Schiavo has hired him “in the issue of withdrawal and/or refusal of medical treatment for your daughter.”

Felos is referring to Terri’s feeding tube. Michael is about to file a petition to remove it.

MARY: I never expected anything like that. And neither did my husband.

They might have, if they’d known Michael had sought out Felos’s services…Or that a decade before, Felos had a spiritual conversion that would intersect with Terri’s life in ways none of them could ever have imagined.

It began in 1986 at a yoga center called Kripalu in the Berkshires in Massachusetts. Felos was attending a retreat called “The Expanded Self,” which was designed to facilitate personal transformation.

Felos was transformed. He describes healing from old emotional wounds so profound that he experienced as “a rocket of energy that exploded up my spine and out the top of my head.” He found himself hurled into the heights of spiritual ecstasy. In his words, he was “baptized in mystical fire.”

SFX: FLOCK OF BIRDS

Floating in euphoria, Felos felt the joy of grass growing. Was at one with a flock of birds as they wheeled and swooped in the sky. Felos heard the unspoken thoughts of other people. He saw other people’s souls. Not metaphorically, he would later write. Actually.

Back in Florida after the retreat, Felos maintains no interest in his pre-Kripalu life—not friends, social occasions, entertainment, alcohol, sex, or even his career in law. Instead, he is gripped in euphoria, vibrating with joy…and sometimes darkness. He awakens in the middle of the night to his body involuntarily twisted into asanas—yoga positions. Each morning, he awakens eagerly at 4:30am for three or four hours of yoga and meditation.

At his law office, he spends huge chunks of time devouring religious texts—the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita, and other Hindu holy writings.

Felos is locked like a laser entirely on his new purpose in life: God-realization. His monk-like zeal makes his family and friends uncomfortable. His wife is afraid he’s on the verge of becoming nonfunctional.

What she may not have known is that Felos brought something else home from Kripalu: a brand new fascination with death.

SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE: Lawless is made possible by listeners like you. Additional support comes from Samaritan Ministries, a Biblical solution to health care, connecting Christians across the nation who care for one another spiritually and financially when a medical need arises. More at samaritanministries.org/worldpodcast.

SFX: CAR DRIVING

Two weeks after Kripalu, George Felos drives over to visit a patient in a nursing home. Her name is Estelle Browning and she’s 89 years old.

Cut down by a massive stroke, Browning is now locked in a vegetative state, unable to speak. Prior to her stroke, Browning executed a living will in which she had specifically declined a feeding tube. But the nursing home staff is refusing to honor this advance directive and Browning’s cousin, Doris Herbert, isn’t happy about it.

Herbert, a sturdy, white-haired New Englander, has hired Felos to intervene.

SFX: NURSING HOME

At the nursing home, Felos finds Browning’s room, enters, and stands by the bed. Browning is curled into the fetal position. Next to her bed, there’s an I.V. stand. From it hangs a plastic sack of thick fluid that seeps into Browning through a nasogastric tube.

Felos has seen Browning’s advance directive. The question on his mind is, does Browning want that feeding tube removed? Does she want to die? Felos needs to know for sure before he accepts the case. But how? Browning is locked in a vegetative state and unresponsive.

But back at Kripalu, Felos had heard people’s unspoken thoughts. Maybe that’s why he decides to ask her.

Felos raises his voice, nearly shouting: “Mrs. Browning, do you want to die?”

“Do you want to die?”

At Kripalu, Felos had bought a book on something called “conscious dying.” It taught that meditation and spiritual practice is the process of dying—of extinguishing our egos and our bodies. Of realizing that we are the expression and manifestation of the Divine.

In his 2002 book, "Litigation as Spiritual Practice," Felos describes what happened next:  As he gazes at Mrs. Browning, he begins to feel light-headed and notices a strange quality to the light in the room.

Felos writes: “As Mrs. Browning lay motionless before my gaze, I suddenly heard a loud, deep moan and scream.”

Felos writes that Browning hasn’t moved or uttered a sound. But he hears her anyway.

Again, in his words, “I sensed her soul in agony. As she screamed, I heard her say in confusion, ‘Why am I still here?...why am I here?’”

Felos feels his soul touch Browning’s soul. And in that moment, he promises her that he’ll do everything in his power to gain the release her soul cried for.

With that, the screaming stops. Immediately. Felos feels he is back in his own head and the room resumes its normal appearance.

The incident startles him. He wrestles with it. Had the encounter been his imagination? No, he decides. This “soul-speak,” as he would call it, was real. And it is on the basis of this metaphysical communication, utterly silent and which did not take place in time and space, that Felos agrees to become an agent of Estelle Browning’s death.

He has also found his new mission in life. He will help people break free of unwanted bonds to their earthly bodies. Help them return to the Divine essence, the Universal Consciousness.

This will be his act of service…and spiritual growth. George Felos will reenter his life through the right to die.

A year after Mary finds Felos’s first letter in her mailbox, the Schindlers receive another letter. It’s May 1998. George Felos has officially filed Michael’s petition to remove Terri’s feeding tube. The petition claims that Terri…

BOBBY: …specifically expressed her desire not to remain alive should she be in an irreversible condition.

When Bobby learns Michael is claiming that Terri said she’d want to die, he doesn’t believe it.

BOBBY: I think from the very beginning I, I never believed that Terri ever made these alleged wishes. And that Michael was was again, using this in another attempt to end her life…because he had failed twice already. By trying to stop antibiotics. I thought okay, now he's going to try and do it this way. And this isn't going to work either, because nobody's going to agree to starve and dehydrate disabled person to death…when there's a parent when there's families lose the family, it's willing to care for her...

And there’s another paragraph in Michael’s request to remove “artificial life support” that has received, essentially, zero attention for the past 24 years. Here it is:

BOBBY: In the event the court does not find clear and convincing evidence of the ward’s intent, that [the court] make a finding it is in the best interest of the ward that artificial life support be discontinued.

To put it plainly, if the judge isn't convinced that Terri expressed a wish to die, Michael wants him to order her death anyway. Felos—not Michael—drafted the petition, of course.

By this time, Felos has been a key figure in the Florida right to die movement for more than a decade. In 1990, the same year Terri suffered her brain injury, Felos began volunteering at Florida Hospice of the Suncoast in Largo, Florida. Caring for patients. That same year, he also argued the Estelle Browning case at the Florida Supreme Court. Though Browning has already died, Felos argues the case anyway, establishing in Florida the right to refuse life-prolonging procedures.

Unlike Estelle Browning, though, Terri didn’t have an advance directive. So, under Florida law, Michael has to have “clear and convincing evidence” of Terri’s wishes. Here, eight years after her collapse, Michael was now claiming Terri told him she would never want to live this way.

JIM AVERY: And nobody believed that. You know, nobody talks about that back then.

That’s Dr. Jim Avery, a physician who would later become involved in Terri’s case. Avery would later file an affidavit supporting the Schindlers. Then he would become medical director of Florida Hospice of the Suncoast.

JIM AVERY: And nobody talks about it when you're 20. But we see people lie about that all the time. I mean, that's just not uncommon.

When Mary hears about the petition for the first time, she remembers thinking this can’t be Michael, her son-in-law. He used to call her Mom.

MARY: A lot of crying on my part, I know that.

Mary can feel her heart hardening toward Michael. She thought about how he’d put Terri’s cats to sleep. Now, Mary thinks, he wants to do that to Terri.

Together, the Schindlers decide to fight.

AMBI: STREET SOUNDS FROM OUTSIDE PAM CAMPBELL'S OFFICE

In May 2021, my co-writer Anna and I visited the Alexander building with Bobby Schindler. It’s in the historic district of downtown St. Petersburg. Built in 1919. Four stories, brick, with white classical columns, squashed between an American restaurant and a pizza joint.

Thirty years ago, attorney Pam Campbell’s law offices were in this building.

LYNN: So it's very sedate and traditional with tucking, you know, Diamond tuck leather chairs and big archways and coffered ceilings.

When Michael filed the petition to remove Terri’s feeding tube, the Schindlers had to find a lawyer to help them fight it. They chose Pam Campbell to represent them. She’d practiced guardianship and probate law for years already.

But there was another reason the Schindlers chose Campbell: Money. To pay Felos, Michael would use the money in Terri’s medical trust fund. But the Schindlers couldn’t afford to hire a lawyer. Campbell took the case pro bono.

Campbell is a sitting probate judge these days, so she declined our request for an interview. Another judge, the one who held all the cards in Schiavo vs. Schindler, simply didn’t respond.

EVENT HOST: We owe a great deal of gratitude as he embodies what judicial independence is all about. Great honor in…introducing the honorable George W. Greer… [APPLAUSE]

No one knew it at the time, but Judge George Greer was about to become the most famous judge in Pinellas County. And maybe the most famous probate judge of all time.

Probate court isn’t glamorous. Probate judges are the ones who step in to distribute assets after a death in the family.

AUDIO: “Riders on the Storm” 

Before he became famous for the Schiavo case, Judge Greer had another brush with fame.

GREER: Before Schiavo my, my claim to fame was a one of my roommates for one semester at Florida State University with Jim Morrison but that faded into oblivion.

That would be Jim Morrison of the influential 1960’s mega-band, the Doors.

GREER: And Morrison started off ... We all kind of got along. It was kind of fun. We partied. We sometimes went to class.

After law school, Greer worked as an attorney, then ran for circuit judge. He’s only been on the probate bench for a few months when the Schiavo case lands on his desk. By then, he’s acquired both gray hair and a good reputation.

Greer is known as impartial and unemotional. Calm and even-keeled.

Greer calls himself a “Southern Baptist at heart.” By this time, he’s been attending Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater for 35 years. He got married there, baptized his sons there. He taught Sunday school and coached the church’s basketball and softball teams.

RICE: There are people here have been here for decades. And they knew…George, you know, he taught in their Sunday school class…

Willie Rice became pastor of Greer’s church in the early 2000s.

RICE: He was somebody that they had dinner with; somebody they knew.

At the time, Rice had no idea he and Greer would wind up in conflict over Terri Schiavo.

Greer has never been asked to withdraw life support before. In fact, he’s never even heard of a persistent vegetative state. His only medical training was one class in law school called…appropriately… “Law and Medicine.” But he has a philosophy on how to navigate the law and ethics.

GREER: Well, to maintain integrity, you just need to do the right thing. It helps to be Scottish. But our job simply is to determine what the facts are, determine what the law is, and let the two mesh.

The Schindlers know Greer’s reputation. And despite previous setbacks, they feel the judge will be able to untangle the facts in Terri’s case, and make a just ruling.

BOBBY: We were so confident based on Michael's conflicts of interest and the fact that my family was willing and wanting to care for Terri…we didn't think for a second he would ever rule in favor of Michael.

MARY: I figured there's absolutely no way in this world they would take her feeding tube away, starve her to death

When Michael files his 1998 petition, another key player enters the case: Attorney Richard Pearse. He’s randomly selected to become Terri’s guardian ad litem.

SFX: RING TONES

I spoke with Pearse by phone in December 2021.

LYNN: Well, thanks for agreeing to talk with me about this case.

PEARSE: I have agreed and I understand I'm being recorded and that's fine.

As guardian ad litem, Richard Pearse’s job is to investigate the claims in Michael’s petition. to remove Terri’s feeding tube.

PEARSE: I thought this was just another sort of routine assignment. And, uh, and boy, was I wrong about that. The husband, Michael, wanted one thing very badly, and the parents wanted something else very badly. So it became a case of the immovable object against the irresistible force.

When the case lands in Pearse’s lap in 1998, the pyrotechnics that will one day light up Schiavo v. Schindler are still years away. The litigation is still unfolding in a sleepy probate court, involving issues settled in hundreds of cases every day.

Is there evidence to support the parties’ claims? What do the witnesses say? And what are the relevant statutes?

According to Florida Statutes, Chapter 765, Michael, as guardian—or proxy—would likely be able to remove Terri's feeding tube. In brief, the chapter says that if Terri did not leave a written advance directive, her legally appointed guardian can make treatment decisions.

There’s just one condition—and I’ll read from the statute here— “except that a proxy’s decision to withhold or withdraw life-prolonging procedures must be supported by clear and convincing evidence that the decision would have been the one the patient would have chosen had the patient been competent.”

Clear and convincing is an evidentiary standard. It means that the evidence is substantially more likely to be true than untrue. That’s a lower standard than “beyond reasonable doubt”...that we’re familiar with in criminal law.

One interesting thing about the Chapter 765 statute: It does not say that clear and convincing evidence has to be established by a court. As Terri’s guardian and healthcare proxy, if Michael had clear and convincing evidence of Terri’s wish to die, Michael could have withdrawn her feeding tube at any time.

But Felos had warned Michael that the Schindlers would fight him. Drag him into court. Bury him in motions. So Felos had advised Michael to ask a judge to decide whether the evidence met the clear and convincing standard…and put a judicial stamp of approval on the whole matter.

During his 44-year career as an estate and elder care attorney, Richard Pearse often accepted appointments as guardian ad litem for incapacitated people. His approach to the job differed from some of his peers – he felt his clients deserved an advocate in court, not just a disinterested observer.

PEARSE: When I was appointed guardian ad litem, I always thought that was a protective sort of position where I was supposed to take Terri's side.

As Pearse begins his investigation, his guidestar is due process. Other lawyers at the time would have said Pearse’s job was to be unbiased. But that’s not how Pearse approaches the job.

PEARSE: My one opinion that I've always held, that has never changed is that Terri should have been individually represented by somebody. And it doesn't have to be me. But it needed to be somebody. I felt that I was an advocate for Terri.

Pearse starts by interviewing all the people who are close to Terri. He talks to her parents. He talks to Michael.

PEARSE: He was pretty hostile.

Not explicitly hostile, Pearse says. But…well, difficult.

PEARSE: He had no interest in cooperating with me because I believe that he thought I was trying to side with Terri's parents against him. And I mean, that would be a natural reaction for anybody who, you know, regards me as sympathetic to an adversary.

Pearse also goes to visit Terri.

PEARSE: And the Terri that I saw, laid in the bed. Her eyes were open. She closed her eyes. Sometimes she would respond to deep stimulus... I watched a doctor One time… he put his thumb excuse me, on her chest and press pretty hard. And, and she responded to that she had a deep pain response. …But she couldn't talk. … she was bed bound at that point. And…some people said, you know, her eyes were expressive. I never found that to be true. She just had a vacant glare. There's no question in my mind, that she was in by that time, a persistent vegetative state.

For months, both sides wait as Pearse completes his investigation. Finally, on December 20, 1998, he files his report with Judge Greer. Pearse recommends that Greer deny Michael’s petition to have Terri’s feeding tube removed.

PEARSE: You know, I just doubted his credibility. Generally. I felt like, you know, they were young people. And, you know, he wanted to this was a problem he wanted to get rid of. So he moved on with his, with his life…He'd moved on he, he wasn't really regarding Terri as his spouse anymore…it didn't seem like he was acting like a husband following marriage vows would act to me.

Like attorney Jim Sheehan before him, Pearse concludes that the chronology of the case raises issues about Michael’s credibility. In his report, Pearse notes the aggressive care Michael pursued before the malpractice case, followed by the falling out with the Schindlers and the withdrawal of care after he got the money. Pearse also finds that Michael isolated Terri from her parents, withheld antibiotics, and then filed his petition for the withdrawal of life support.

Here, it’s worth reading directly from Pearse’s report…which, again, was written well before all the fireworks that would one day accompany the case. Michael petitioned to withdraw life support “on the basis of evidence apparently known only to him which could have been asserted at any time during the ward’s illness.

Pearse went on with some important legalese. I’ll bottom-line it for you:

One, Michael was the only witness to Terri’s alleged wish to die…

Two, Michael would be the direct beneficiary if Terri did die…

Three, therefore, Michael’s evidence did not meet the clear and convincing standard.

In our interview, Pearse zeroes in on the core reason he recommended that Judge Greer deny Michael’s petition.

PEARSE: At the beginning, there was a lot of money sitting there, like three quarters of a million dollars sitting there. And I thought that created a conflict of interest that I just couldn't ignore.

When the Schindlers learn of Pearse’s report, they’re optimistic…but also realistic.

MARY: I remember him telling us that with the conflicts that he thought, you know, he had with the girlfriend and, you know, the money… that he didn't think Michael, you know, should be her guardian. But that was just the start of…I wasn't excited. No, I wasn't excited. Because, you know, the way Bob was, he says We're just starting this. He says to me, you know, he said, we've got a long way to go…

Still, the Schindlers feel Pearse’s findings ratify their view of Michael’s actions completely. Not just his petition, but everything going back to 1993. Bob thinks Greer may even throw Michael’s case out of court.

But the celebration doesn’t last long.

In response to Pearse’s report, George Felos fires off a motion to Judge Greer. He requests that Greer discharge Pearse as Terri’s guardian ad litem.

PEARSE: And he was going back. He was digging stuff up that I never thought anybody would throw in my face.

Felos accuses Pearse of bias. Pearse is furious…and offended.

PEARSE: For one thing, if…if I was discharged, I felt Terri would have no representation at all. And that bothered me a lot. I thought she should have somebody. And as I recall, when I petitioned the court, I said, either expand my powers to represent her, or appoint somebody else or do something.

Greer denies Pearse’s petition—and grants Felos’s motion. Pearse is booted from the case.

But Greer doesn’t appoint a replacement. And Terri will no longer have independent representation in court.

In 1999, lawyers for both sides take depositions to prepare for trial. Attorney Pam Campbell questions Michael. She asks him if he’s considered turning Terri’s guardianship over to the Schindlers.

MICHAEL: No, I have not.

CAMPBELL: And why?

MICHAEL: I think that’s pretty self-explanatory.

These are voice actors, but the transcript is verbatim.

CAMPBELL: I’d like to hear your answer.

MICHAEL: Basically, I don’t want to do it.

CAMPBELL: And why don’t you want to do it?

MICHAEL: Because they put me through pretty much hell the last few years.

CAMPBELL: Can you describe what you mean by hell?

MICHAEL: The litigation they put me through.

CAMPBELL: Any other specifics besides litigation?

MICHAEL: Just their attitude towards me because of the litigations. There is no other reason. I’m Terri’s husband and I will remain guardian.

Felos takes a moment with his client. Michael is then asked if there is any other reason Michael won’t turn over guardianship to the Schindlers.

MICHAEL: Another reason would be her parents wouldn’t carry out her wishes.

Bob and Mary Schindler also take their turn in the hot seat. Felos poses string of gruesome hypotheticals— questions that seem designed to show that the Schindlers’ views of preserving life are extreme.. For example, he asks what would the Schindlers do if, in order to stay alive, Terri needed a series of amputations.

He asks the Schindlers whether they would allow doctors to lop off Terri’s limbs, one after another. The Schindlers say yes. Three amputations into his questioning….

FELOS: [9:47] I couldn't even bear to ask myself about the last remaining limb in this hypothetical scenario and I asked her mother. I said, Well, if I know you don't agree that these are Terri's wishes. I know that however, let's assume that it's undisputed, she didn't want to be kept alive this way…

That’s Felos speaking to Compassion and Choices of Washington in 2005.

Compassion and Choices has a messy pedigree. In 1980, assisted suicide activist Derek Humphry founded the Hemlock Society. That was five years after he spiked his wife’s coffee with poison. In 1975, Mrs. Jean Humphrey drank the poisoned brew and died. Mr. Humphry said she did so willingly…to escape the ravages of cancer. But Humphry’s second wife, Ann, said it was murder. That Humphry actually suffocated Jean.

Humphry was never charged and left the Hemlock Society in 2003. By then, right-to-die activists seemed to realize that “Hemlock”—a reference to the forced suicide of the Greek philosopher Socrates—maybe wasn’t the best marketing strategy.

Right-to-die groups began using terms like “end of life” and “compassion.” The Hemlock Society, thus rebranded, ultimately joined forces with groups like Compassion and Choices of Washington.

And that’s where George Felos was accorded a hero’s welcome in 2005, the year Terri died. The year…it could be argued…that Felos won the Schiavo case once and for all.

Felos told the group more about Mary’s deposition.

FELOS: I said, why is it that you would keep her tube in put her through that medical treatment? And her answer was that, because that's what I would want for myself. Now, I'm not making I'm not making this up. Obviously, this is in the record. This was this was her answer. And I was the, and I asked them. My next question, well, what why is it that you'd want that for yourself? And she said, Well, I believe that the body should be sustained by all treatments possible, because it's God's will that we maintain life as as long as possible.

Here’s the thing about Felos. When I read his 2002 book, "Litigation as Spiritual Practice," he struck me as a sincere man—given to deep introspection. Soulful, even. When we spoke by phone, I told him so.

But this also struck me: during and after the Schiavo case, Felos criticized those who held to a Judeo-Christian view of Terri’s right to live.

FELOS: On a very on a personal level, one of the greatest challenges in this case, was trying to remain open hearted, and not hating the people who I was dealing with… Because it is, I'll be honest, religious fundamentalism gives me the willies. It's, it's very difficult for me to relate to a mindset that relegates to hell, everyone else who doesn't express out their belief in God or relationship with spirit in a different way.

Felos said people trying to keep Terri alive were motivated by politics and not the law. By religion and not medical science.

He presented himself as the arbiter of science and reason. But all the while, Felos remained silent on his own motivation—that rapturous and all-consuming spiritual conversion he experienced in 1986. That “mystical fire” that led to his “calling” to liberate people from life….A calling he realized during a supernatural conversation he didn’t actually hear…with a woman who couldn’t actually speak.

LAWLESS THEME

Next time, on Lawless:

BOBBY: I clearly knew there was something wrong. My dad, I mean, His face was white as a ghost And I knew clearly he was upset. And I said, I said, are we breaking for lunch? I believe and he said, No, it's finished.

Lawless is a production of WORLD Radio. Our executive producer and sound engineer is Paul Butler. Our production assistant is Lillian Hamman. Music by Will Shehan. Audio support from Creative Genius Productions. Lawless is reported and written by Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett, and me, Lynn Vincent. For a list of additional audio sources in this episode, visit LawlessPodcast.com. Thank you for joining us.

EPISODE 6 SOURCES
(In order of appearance)


WORLD Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of WORLD Radio programming is the audio record.

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