The World and Everything in It: September 28, 2023

PREROLL: The World and Everything in It is made possible by listeners like us. I'm Gardiner Church, War Eagle from Auburn, Alabama. I am the mother of three beautiful girls and one awesome son-in-law, and wife to my husband Putt. And yes, that's just like golf. I create, customize, and deliver gift baskets. I hope you enjoy today's program.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Good morning! The second Republican debate last night had some fireworks. We’ll bring you the highlights.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST:  Also the debate over spending American dollars to defend Ukraine. Plus, the use of AI in drones programmed to kill.

AUDIO: So, to delegate our decisions about taking a life into a machine, yeah, it’s hard to imagine that something that God would ever countenance.

And when the government in Britain decides who lives and who dies.

REICHARD: It’s Thursday, September 28th. This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Mary Reichard.

BROWN: And I’m Myrna Brown. Good morning!

REICHARD: Time for news now with Kent Covington.

KENT COVINGTON, NEWS ANCHOR: Trump in Detroit » As seven Republican White House hopefuls squared off last night in California, former President Trump campaigned in a major swing state.

TRUMP: I’m thrilled to be back with the workers, UAW members, and proud patriots of the great state of Michigan. 

Trump rallied supporters in suburban Detroit one day after President Biden spoke to striking autoworkers in the area, picketing outside of a GM plant.

Trump said Biden is not the pro-worker president he claims to be.

TRUMP: Now they want to go all-electric and put you all out of business. You know that, right?

The former president carried Michigan in 2016, but narrowly lost the state to Biden in 2020.

Budget talks » House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is racing to beat a Saturday deadline to avoid a partial government shutdown.

Members will likely hold a vote tomorrow on a bill that would buy more time for lawmakers to debate spending.

The temporary bill would largely keep current funding levels in place. But it would also cut federal spending by 8% from some agencies and strengthen border security.

McCarthy said all Republicans should be able to support that.

MCCARTHY: Remember what it is. This is a stopgap funding to keep government open and secure the border. I don’t know that anyone is opposed to that.

But even if it passes, President Biden and many Senate Democrats vow to block the House bill.

The Senate is working to craft its own funding bill … which would likely be dead on arrival in the House.

Menendez’s pleaded not guilty » New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez and his wife Nadine pleaded not guilty Wednesday to federal bribery charges. Both were released on bail.

Prosecutors accuse the couple of raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars in exchange for political favors.

On Capitol Hill, a growing number of Democrats are calling on Menendez to step down. Colorado Sen. Michael Bennet:

BENNET: These allegations don’t bring credit to our institution and … he obviously is presumed innocent until he has his hearings. But that doesn’t mean he should stay here, and I don’t think he should.

Menendez escaped separate corruption charges in 2017 when his case ended in a mistrial.

Abbott on border » In New York City, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott slammed President Biden’s border policies. In a speech to the Manhattan Institute he said the president is not enforcing immigration laws already on the books.

ABBOTT: Joe Biden is knowingly and affirmatively abandoning the rule of law in the United States. That alone angers Americans. But also, it undermines who we are as a country.

The White House recently gave a green light to the state of New York to grant work permits to nearly a half-million Venezuelan migrants, many of whom entered the country illegally.

Abbott’s visit comes as New York City says it’s spending $10 million dollars a day to house migrants.

Target closures » Target is closing nine stores in four states because of rampant theft in major U.S. cities. WORLD’s Josh Schumacher has more.

JOSH SCHUMACHER: The company will shut down locations in New York City, San Francisco, Oakland, Portland, and Seattle. All five locations have seen a big spike in shoplifting and flash mob robberies.

Target employees will have the option to transfer to a different store. All nine locations will close late next month.

The announcement comes as the retail chain is still reeling from a boycott over its pro-LGBT activism.

For WORLD, I’m Josh Schumacher.

Travis King » An American soldier who went AWOL after purposely sprinting across a border into North Korea is back in U.S. custody.

The Biden administration says Pyongyang handed him over without demanding anything in return.

State Dept. spokesman Matthew Miller:

MILLER: He was transported to the border between North Korea and China where he was met by our ambassador to the People’s Republic of China, Nicholas Burns.

It’s unclear why North Korea opted to expel the private.

King was reportedly convicted of assault in South Korea and faced disciplinary action back in the United States.

I'm Kent Covington.

Straight ahead: Highlights from the second Republican debate. Plus, the ethics of killer drones.

This is The World and Everything in It.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: It’s Thursday, the 28th of September, 2023. Glad to have you along for today’s edition of The World and Everything in It. Good morning, I’m Mary Reichard.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: And I’m Myrna Brown. First up on The World and Everything in It: the second RNC debate.

Last night, seven Republican presidential candidates met on stage at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California.

SOUND: [Clapping, host welcoming folks to the debate]

REICHARD: Debate organizers raised the bar for candidates to qualify for this second debate. Former Arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson was the only one from the last round unable to return. That left Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley, South Carolina Senator Tim Scott, former Vice President Mike Pence, former New Jersey governor Chris Christie, businessman Vivek Ramaswamy, and North Dakota governor Doug Burgum.

BROWN: As expected, former President Donald Trump skipped the debate, leaving his competitors to make their case to the Americans who tuned in.

WORLD politics reporter Leo Briceno stayed up late to watch the debate, and he brings us the highlights.

LEO BRICENO, REPORTER: Standing on a stage underneath Ronald Reagan’s Air Force One jet, the seven candidates came to the second RNC debate looking to build on their previous performance. Over two hours, three moderators rifled through 20 distinct topics, drawing out the candidates’ stances.

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis was more active in this debate. He’s previously veered away from attacking former president Donald Trump, but this time he criticized Trump’s absence.

RON DESANTIS: Donald Trump is missing in action, he should be on this stage tonight. He owes it to you to defend his record where they added 7.8 trillion to the debt…

Governor Doug Burgum, injected several moments of substance into the debate when talking about big-picture questions like what’s behind the auto union strikes in Detroit.

DOUG BURGUM: The reason why people are striking in Detroit is because Joe Biden's interference with capital markets and with free markets. The subsidies, we’re subsidizing the automakers and we're subsidizing the cars and a particular kind of car, not every car. We're particularly, we're subsidizing electric vehicles…

Compared to the last debate in August, the candidates covered a few more topics; Crime in the United States came up in a number of different forms, and so did immigration. Ukraine was again a large focus. A few notable moments there:

Ron DeSantis questioned the motivation behind prolonged fighting in Ukraine.

DESANTIS: We don't even have control of our own territory. We have got to defend the American people before we even worry about all these other things. And I watch these guys in Washington DC, and they don't care about the American people….

Senator Tim Scott countered that America was making an investment in Ukraine, part of which would get paid back.

TIM SCOTT: By degrading the Russian military, we actually keep our homeland safer. We keep our troops at home. And we all understand article five of NATO….

And Vivek Ramaswamy came to verbal blows with former Vice President Mike Pence over foreign policy priorities.

RAMASWAMY: China is the real enemy. And we're driving Russia further into China's arms. We need a reasonable peace plan to end this. Especially this is a country whose president just last week was [Pence interrupts].

PENCE: Vivek, if you let Putin have Ukraine, that's a green light to China to take Taiwan. Peace comes through strength.

Elsewhere in the debate, Ramaswamy also doubled down on his proposal to remove the guarantee of citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants.

RAMASWAMY: Now, the Left will howl about the Constitution in the 14th Amendment. The difference between me and them is I've actually read the 14th amendment. What it says is that all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the laws and jurisdiction thereof, are citizens. So nobody believes that the kid of a Mexican diplomat in this country enjoys birthright citizenship, not a judge or legal scholar in this country will disagree with me on that. Well, if the kid of a Mexican diplomat doesn't enjoy birthright citizenship, then neither does the kid have an illegal migrant who broke the law to come here.

Former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley told audiences she would back law enforcement by following up police work with prosecutorial power.

HALEY: We have to start taking care of law enforcement. But it's not just taking care of them with words. It's making sure that you also follow through on what they do right now we have a lot of stolen guns on the street. Well, these law enforcement officers, they arrest these people, and then they go and they’re let out the very next day. So law enforcement feels like they don't no one has their back. We have to start prosecuting according to the law.

While the topic of abortion received the spotlight only briefly, Governor Ron DeSantis issued a strong support for life in the womb when he was asked if he believed Republicans could make a pro-life stance into a winning one.

DESANTIS: And I reject this idea that pro-lifers are to blame for midterm defeats. I think there's other reasons for that. The former president, you know, he's missing in action tonight. He's had a lot to say about that. He should be here explaining his comments, to try to say that pro-life protections are somehow a terrible thing. I want him to look into the eyes and tell people who've been fighting this fight for a long time.

Former Governor Chris Christie also touched on the subject, but in contrast to DeSantis, suggested that the issue was primarily a question for the states to answer.

CHRISTIE: Because I believe in life, but I also believe in states’ rights. And I think we fought hard against Roe v. Wade for decades to say that states should make these decisions. So we're going to have those fights in the States. But what you need is a leader who could talk to people and make them understand that if you're pro life, you have to be pro life for the entire life, not just the nine months in the womb.

The night was also marked by a series of misfires. Chris Christie tried calling out Trump in a way that didn’t stick the landing with the Reagan Library crowd:

CHRISTIE: You keep doing that, no one up here is gonna call you Donald Trump anymore. We're gonna call you, Donald Duck.

And Mike Pence miscalculated when he sidestepped a question about the DACA program to talk about punishing mass shooters.

PENCE: We have to mete out justice and send a message to these would-be killers that you are not going to live out your days behind bars. You're gonna meet justice in this system.

MODERATOR: Does that mean Obamacare is here to stay? [laughter and clapping]

And a number of candidates found themselves playing tug-of-war with the moderators.

RAMASWAMY: These these are good people who are tainted by a broken system, and it's not the fault of anybody who's hated. [talking over Tim Scott] Thank you for speaking while I'm interrupting.

MODERATOR Both sides, gentlemen, you'll have your turn.

One of the challenges we have.

[Several talking over each other]

MODERATOR: If you speak at the same time no one can understand you.

RAMASWAMY: Exactly. So if I may, I agree with Ron DeSantis…

In terms of time, DeSantis enjoyed the most limelight with 12 and a half minutes of speaking time. Scott and Christie, at the middle of the pack, got roughly 10 minutes and thirty seconds apiece. Burgam, at the bottom, closed the night with just seven.

Candidates will take the stage again on November 8th in Miami.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Leo Briceno.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: Coming up next on The World and Everything in It: The battle over funding for Ukraine.

SOUND: [Artillery firing]

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine began almost 20 months ago. What was expected to be a quick takeover turned into a bloody war of attrition, with both sides turning to friends and allies for material support to continue.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Many Americans support funding Ukraine’s defense as a matter of principle. But others are worried that the billions of dollars going to Kyiv are coming at the expense of domestic concerns. And those Americans’ representatives are listening.

BROWN: Lawmakers in Washington now have two business days left to pass legislation to fund the government for the next year and avoid a shutdown. Democrats have uniformly opposed House Speaker Kevin McCarthy’s attempts to pass spending bills…but so have some Republicans as well.

REICHARD: While there are many issues that have slowed down votes, funding for Ukraine has proven to be a sticking point.

WORLD’s Washington intern Clara York has the story.

CLARA YORK, REPORTER: When Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy visited Washington last week, he received a warm welcome in the U.S. Senate. Here’s Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer after a closed-door meeting with Zelenskyy last Thursday

CHUCK SCHUMER: Mr Zelenskyy said, if we don't get the aid, we will lose the war. That's a quote from him.

But when Zelenskyy asked to address a joint session of Congress, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy declined. Instead, he had a private meeting with Zelenskyy and said this to reporters afterward:

MCCARTHY: We talked about a lot of different things. I thought it was a very good thought. It was a direct I thought it was productive. I raised issues with him. See, we're very concerned about accountability.

Pew Research found that in May of last year, 17 percent of Republican voters thought the U.S. was doing too much to aid Ukraine. That number has nearly tripled. In July, nearly a third of House Republicans voted for an amendment that would have blocked future funding for Ukraine.

The Senate passed a measure earlier this week to provide temporary funding for the government through November 17th, while giving 6 billion dollars to Ukraine. But it’s dead on arrival in the House, where some Republicans oppose bundling Ukraine spending with funding for domestic needs.

Here’s Republican representative Scott Perry on Tuesday, objecting to the fact that the Senate bill ties funding for Ukraine with funding for the Federal Aviation Administration.

SCOTT PERRY: Maybe both of those are important, Madam Speaker, but tell me why I've got to vote to keep airplanes flying in the United States and vote to spend money in a war 8,000 miles away. The American people are sick of that failure, that failure theater.

Many Republicans who oppose continuing to fund Ukraine say it is financially unsustainable and comes at the expense of responding to domestic problems. They’re concerned about the border and natural disaster relief. Here’s McCarthy again:

KEVIN MCCARTHY: They're picking Ukraine over Americans. Look, I know there's problems out there. What Russia has done is wrong and we can defend that. But we are also watching happening right here in America right now. Why can't we deal with the border and our emergencies too?

James Jay Carafano specializes in national security and foreign policy studies at the Heritage Foundation. He says those Republicans are representing the concerns of their constituents.

CARAFANO: Americans are deeply concerned about their personal lives, what's going on in the border, crime, immigration, inflation, the stuff that's really even China, because China's actually hitting them in their own pocketbooks. These are the issues that they're really concerned about. And these are the issues that they're really, really voting on.

So far, the U.S. has sent over 75 billion dollars in aid to Ukraine. Over 46 billion of that is military aid, including missiles, tanks, helicopters, infantry equipment, and more. In dollars, America has given billions more than any other country. But as a percentage of national GDP, or gross domestic product, America gives zero point three percent (0.3%), putting it seventeenth on the list. In first place, Norway has given far more with its roughly 1.7 percent.

But other Republicans argue that it is in America’s best interest to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia. Here’s Carafano:

CARAFANO: If Russia conquered Ukraine, that would be deeply destabilizing in Europe. It would not only empower the Russians to be more aggressive. This was essentially is exactly what the Chinese wanted. China wants a Europe that is divided, distracted, disorganized, and have the American presidents marginalize that plays to their strengths. So make no mistake, but defeat for Russia is a defeat for China, and China is the number one issue in American foreign policy today.

Many lawmakers say continued aid is vital to preventing a Russian victory… and future invasions. But Carafano argues that while the U-S has already given Ukraine enough aid to ensure victory, President Biden has failed to provide a plan for the future.

CARAFANO: He's never explained what the strategy is. He's asked for a blank check. He's tied Ukraine emergency funding to all kinds of things which are actually detrimental to the good life of everyday Americans, and kind of holding everything hostage, because we have to give money to Ukraine. 

And that’s something many conservatives—inside and outside of Washington—are fed up with.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Clara York.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: The beloved artist Bob Ross has been gone for nearly thirty years now. But interest in his work isn’t gone.

ROSS: Hi, I'm Bob Ross, and for the next 13 weeks, I'll be your host as we experience the joy of painting.

On that first episode released in 1986, Bob Ross created a painting titled “A Walk in the Woods.”

And Mary, we all have a shot to own that very painting! It’s up for sale at the Modern Artifact gallery in Minneapolis.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: How much?

BROWN: Well, hold on to your hat. Almost 10 million dollars!

ROSS: Now, let's play a little bit here. Let's have a happy little tree right in here.

I did the math. There’re five trees in the picture, so that comes to one million, nine hundred and seventy dollars per happy tree.

REICHARD: Think I’ll paint my own trees then.

BROWN: Yeah, that’s probably what Bob Ross would’ve preferred.

It’s The World and Everything in It.

MARY REICHARD, HOST:  Today is Thursday, September 28th. Thank you for turning to WORLD Radio to help start your day.

Good morning. I’m Mary Reichard.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: And I’m Myrna Brown. Coming next on The World and Everything in It: killer robots.

This month, a series of hearings on Capitol Hill brought artificial intelligence fears back in the spotlight. That, after a year of intense debate over the implications of AI products like ChatGPT.

REICHARD: But, that’s not the only arena of concern. Recent innovations in battlefield drones are heating up the debate over the ethics of autonomous weapons. WORLD Features Reporter Grace Snell has the story.

SOUND: [Slaughterbots powering up, whirring sound]

GRACE SNELL, REPORTER: Imagine this scene: A swarm of attack drones whines overhead, darkening the sky. They swoop over the countryside scanning the ground for targets.

NEWS ANCHOR: The nation is still recovering from yesterday’s incident, which officials are describing as some kind of automated attack…

It’s a scene from a sci-fi film. The robots hunt their victims using facial recognition technology. When they find a profile match, they fire.

NEWS ANCHOR: Authorities are still struggling to make sense of an attack on university students worldwide which targeted some students and not others. [Static] Stay away from crowds when indoors, keep windows covered with shutters. [Static] Protect your family, stay inside…

This is a hypothetical scenario—the plot of a dystopian short film called “Slaughterbots.” But, the film’s creators argue it’s not that far-fetched. They aired the film at the United Nations in 2017. It expresses their real-world fears about weapons able to target and kill people on their own—using things like sensors, radar, or AI algorithms.

Experts disagree about whether governments or defense contractors are already using these kinds of systems. But, it is clear that the necessary tech does already exist.

AUDIO: ["Slaughterbots" clip] 

RUSSELL: This short film is more than just speculation. It shows the results of integrating and miniaturizing technologies that we already have…

Stuart Russell is a computer scientist and professor at UC Berkeley.

RUSSELL: I’ve worked in AI for more than 35 years. Its potential to benefit humanity is enormous, even in defense, but allowing machines to choose to kill humans will be devastating to our security and freedom.

Since Slaughterbots’ debut, fears about AI-driven weapons have continued to grow. At the heart of the debate is something called a “lethal autonomous weapons system.”

Exactly what that is, though, is murky. It doesn’t have an internationally-agreed on definition. And the tech is always evolving. But here’s one working definition:

PHILPOT-NISSEN: Any kind of weapon that would, would operate would itself make the decision whether or not to attack without ultimately having an operator pulling the trigger.

Jennifer Philpot-Nissen works on disarmament issues for the World Council of Churches. It’s a member of a coalition called the Campaign to Stop Killer Robots. They’re fighting for a global ban on these kinds of fully autonomous weapons.

PHILPOT-NISSEN: What we’re hearing in the UN meetings is that most states now agree that these weapons should be regulated. But it’s the methods of which they are regulated that they don’t agree on. Most of them are saying, “Well, they need regulating, but we will self regulate,” and we just don’t believe that that’s a sufficient response.

Countries like the United States, China, and Russia view these systems as key to future national security. They say autonomy is inevitable and necessary to keep pace with adversaries.

Clint Hinote spent 35 years in the U.S. Air Force. He flew fighters in the Middle East and worked as a military planner and strategist. For the last five years of his career, Hinote headed up efforts at the Pentagon to develop future Air Force strategy.

Hinote argues these weapons aren’t all that different from systems the military has used for decades. Things like the AMRAAM air-to-air missile—a radar-guided system that zeroes in on targets after launch.

HINOTE: What we’re seeing is more of an evolution in using machines for warfare. And not necessarily a revolution.

Hinote says these machines can’t actually make decisions—at least not in a moral sense.

HINOTE: In the Christian tradition, you know, we think that God gives us the ability to have free will. And humans can’t give machines that free will.

Autonomous weapons act according to programmed rules. Humans are the ones who set up those rules, so humans are still ultimately responsible.

HINOTE: So if we put a machine in a place where it has a sensor, and it’s looking, and if it engages with lethal force, that is a human decision. And it is carried out by a machine…

But, battlefield scenarios are complex and volatile and the outcomes of AI algorithms can be difficult to predict. What if these machines don’t react like they’re supposed to?

Hinote says it’s not a question of whether machines will make mistakes, but rather…

HINOTE: Will the level of mistakes that machines make be less than or equal to what we could expect 19-year-olds who are away from home for the first time they have a gun and they’re scared?” They make a lot of mistakes too. And so it’s important for us to at least have a conversation about the comparison.

But Philpot-Nissen says there’s no practical way to hold people accountable for the mistakes of machines. For her, the moral issue at stake is much more cut and dried.

PHILPOT-NISSEN: God has given us the gifts of empathy and decision-making and love which we can never replicate into a machine. So to delegate our decisions about taking a life into a machine Yeah, it’s hard to imagine that something that God would ever countenance.

Clint Hinote doesn’t think an international ban is realistic. But he does agree the laws of war could use an update “in light of the vast use of autonomy.” Hinote isn’t in uniform anymore. But he said he’d jump at the chance to work on this issue.

HINOTE: There’s a large middle ground there that I think mature countries could come to an agreement upon, but it’s gonna take some willingness to sit down and actually talk it out. I’m hoping that happens soon.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Grace Snell.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: Today is Thursday, September 28th. Good morning! This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Myrna Brown.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: And I’m Mary Reichard. Up next: a tragedy in Great Britain.

On September 12th, a young woman named Sudiksha Thirumalesh died in a British hospital. Until then, she was known simply as Patient S-T.

WORLD Opinions Commentator Calvin Robinson says the story behind “Patient ST” illustrates the life and death stakes of putting healthcare decisions in the hands of politicians.

CALVIN ROBINSON, COMMENTATOR: Recently, I began my TV program on GB News by talking about Patient ST, a 19-year-old girl with a degenerative illness who wanted to live. Her National Health Service doctors said she was “actively dying” and therefore wanted to withhold treatment. She wanted to die fighting to live.

Two psychiatrists deemed her compos mentis, willing and able to decide for herself. However, ST’s medical doctors took her to court and the judge not only agreed with her doctors, but slammed a gag order on Patient ST, which meant she could not talk about her condition publicly. She could not even identify herself.

This state-overreach meant Patient ST could not appeal for crowdfunding to send her over to Canada to join an experimental trial. It also meant she could not ask people to pray for her by name.

Unfortunately, we did not get the opportunity to help Patient ST as we had hoped. Patient ST died last week.

As I understand it, her family will continue to fight, and good for them. But how did we get into a position where the state assumes control over not only how we live, but how and when we die?

I keep hearing this soulless argument about “quality of life” as if a human life is only worth living if it reaches a particular abstract measure of what another human determines as quality.

Have you ever wondered why you don’t see as many young people with Down syndrome these days? That is because in England, and many others across the West, it is entirely legal to kill an unborn baby if he or she has a disability, because so-called medical professionals judge them to have a lower “quality of life” than the rest of us. How dare they? Who are any of us to judge whether someone else deserves to live, based on our own expectations of what it means to live a quality life? I know many happy, successful, and joyful men and women with Down syndrome and other life-altering disabilities.

Of course, the other reason the NHS is hesitant to continue to treat people like Patient ST is the cost implications. This is always the danger with state healthcare. Each human being has a price tag over their heads—a point at which it is no longer financially viable to continue caring for someone.

Surely, at some point, we have to put the spreadsheets away and address the basic ethical question of: Is this the right thing to do?

But then that is a difficult question to ask, when as a country, as a Western society, we have done away with our moral compass. This is what happens when a nation decides it no longer needs to follow Christ. We ditched Christ, and put the NHS in His place. I would say that is not working out so well for us at the moment. Is it too late for us to change our minds?

I’m Calvin Robinson.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Tomorrow: A homeschool family from Germany that legally immigrated to the United States fifteen years ago is getting deported. We’ll talk about it with John Stonestreet on Culture Friday. And, a new sci-fi movie about fighting artificial intelligence. We’ll have a review of The Creator. That and more tomorrow.

I’m Mary Reichard.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: And I’m Myrna Brown.

The World and Everything in It comes to you from WORLD Radio. WORLD’s mission is biblically objective journalism that informs, educates, and inspires.

The Bible records that the Apostles were brought before the [high priest and] council. “And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.” Acts chapter 5, verses 27 through 29

Go now in grace and peace.

WORLD Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of WORLD Radio programming is the audio record.