The World and Everything in It: October 7, 2025

Editor's note: The following text is a transcript of a podcast story. To listen to the story, click on the arrow beneath the headline above.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Good morning!

A Christian counselor takes Colorado to the Supreme Court today, challenging a law that limits what she can say to young clients.

WONING: It's largely a restriction of religious boundaries on sexual behavior in a professional counseling setting.

NICK EICHER, HOST: Also, how tightening a work visa program could affect American workers.

And what some church-goers in Memphis are saying about the National Guard coming to town.

Later, two years after the brutal assault on Israel by Hamas, the hostages are not forgotten

DAVID: We are not going to give up until he's home.

REICHARD: It’s Tuesday, October 7th. This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Mary Reichard.

EICHER: And I’m Nick Eicher. Good morning!

REICHARD: Time now for the news. Here’s Kent Covington.

KENT COVINGTON, NEWS ANCHOR:  Government shutdown latest / Senate vote » President Trump said Monday that he would be open to striking a deal with Democrats on healthcare, the issue at the heart of the now weeklong government shutdown.

Democrats refused to pass a funding bill without new policy changes, particularly on healthcare subsidies.

TRUMP:  Up till now, there hasn't been a great deal of pain. Uh, there could be a great deal of pain, but up till now there hasn't been. I will say this, just hang in there because I think a lot of good things are gonna happen. That's all I can say.

And Trump seemingly suggested talks had already started. But House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries said:

JEFFRIES:  I do not know of any Democrats who have spoken to President Trump or members of his administration on this issue of reopening the government

President Trump later followed up his earlier remarks by saying Democrats must first agree to reopen the government, and then those talks would take place.

Meantime in the Senate on Monday:

AUDIO:  On this vote, the yays are 52 and the nays are 42. Three fifths of the Senate not having voted in the affirmative. The motion is not agreed to.

Democrats successfully blocked another attempt to pass a clean funding extension to reopen the government without meeting their demands.

White House blasts National Guard ruling » The White House is criticizing a ruling by a federal judge blocking—at least for now—the deployment of National Guard troops to Portland, Oregon.

President Trump ordered deployment of Oregon National Guardsmen to the city to safeguard Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and facilities amid sometimes-violent protests.

And Press Secretary Karline Leavitt said District Court Judge Karin Immergut was wrong.

LEAVITT:  With all due respect to that judge, I think her opinion is untethered in reality and in the law. Uh, the president is using his authority as commander-in-Chief US Code 12 4 0 6, which clearly states that the president has the right to call up the National Guard in, in cases where he deems it’s appropriate.

After Judge Immergut, a Trump appointee, blocked the Oregon deployment, the president ordered troops from California to deploy to Portland. But the judge then expanded her order to block that as well.

Illinois sues over National Guard deployment » Meantime, Illinois and Chicago have filed a lawsuit aiming to stop President Trump's administration from sending hundreds of National Guard troops to Chicago.

Democratic Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker told reporters:

PRITZKER:  There is no invasion here. There is no insurrection here, and local and state law enforcement are on the job and managing what they need to.

Trump authorized the deployment of 300 troops to protect federal officers and assets in Chicago.

Over the weekend, a group of protesters aggressively boxed in immigration officials, and one woman allegedly tried to run over federal agents with her car, forcing agents to open fire.

Ukraine strikes Russian targets » Ukraine has carried out new long-range strikes deep inside Russian-held territory. WORLD’s Benjamin Eicher reports.

BENJAMIN EICHER: Officials say the attacks hit an ammunition plant, an oil terminal in Crimea, and a weapons depot.

It’s part of Kyiv’s effort to disrupt Moscow’s supply lines.

Ukraine says it used only weapons made in Ukraine. But President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says U.S. support has not been blocked despite the American government shutdown.

ZELENSKYY: [Speaking in Ukrainian]

EICHER: He added that Washington has now “unlocked the possibility” for Kyiv to buy additional Patriot missile systems, though money remains an issue.

Ukraine’s defense industry continues to expand, aiming to supply at least half its front-line weapons needs by year’s end.

The Ukrainian strikes come as Russia continues to target civilian infrastructure in Ukraine ahead of winter.

For WORLD, I’m Benjamin Eicher.

Jordan Peterson illness » Psychologist and author Jordan Peterson is on a slow road to recovery after a nearly month-long stay in the ICU.

His daughter, Mikhaila Peterson, says he battled pneumonia and sepsis and was diagnosed with critical illness polyneuropathy — serious nerve damage.

PETERSON:  We weren't able to communicate with dad really all of September, but after almost a month in the ICU, he's been moved out to a less urgent floor. Praise God for that. We're still in the midst of this, but now we're seeing improvements daily.

But she says her father remains gravely ill and faces months of recovery and asked for prayers.

She suggested the nerve damage may stem from an underlying condition the family believes he developed over years from mold exposure.

Nobel Medicine honorees » The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine this year goes to three scientists whose work reveals how the immune system attacks threats, but not our own tissues.

Mary E. Brunkow, Fred Ramsdell, and Dr. Shimon Sakaguchi are being honored for uncovering the rules that tell immune cells when to attack.

Brunkow said when her phone rang and her caller ID said Sweden, she assumed it was a spam call and went back to bed:

BRUNKOW:  And then my husband was upstairs and then I heard a voice and he's talking to somebody in the living room and — on the front porch, there was someone on the front porch. And it's the local news, the local AP photographer.

Their discoveries could pave the way for new treatments for autoimmune diseases and even help improve organ transplants and cancer therapies.

I'm Kent Covington.

Straight ahead: the battle to define so-called “conversion therapy.” Plus, blurring the line between causes and fabricated advocacy.

This is The World and Everything in It.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: It’s Tuesday, the 7th of October.

Glad to have you along for today’s edition of The World and Everything in It. Good morning, I’m Mary Reichard.

NICK EICHER, HOST: And I’m Nick Eicher.

First up, so-called conversion therapy laws.

This morning, the Supreme Court hears oral arguments in Chiles v. Salazar, the case of a Christian therapist suing the state over a law she says restricts her First Amendment rights.

REICHARD: We’ll cover the arguments in Monday’s Legal Docket, but today, conflicting visions for helping confused minors.

TREVOR PROJECT VIDEO: It's not about speech. It's about protecting young people from a junk science that is designed to shame them into denying that they really are.

REICHARD: That video is from the Trevor Project…an LGBTQ advocacy group pushing for laws on conversion therapy across the US.

TREVOR PROJECT VIDEO: Nearly half the states across the country have laws like Colorado's because every major medical and mental health association agrees this is harm not help.

EICHER: America’s leading medical, psychiatric, psychological and pediatric associations all support these laws. But what exactly do they do?

JOHNSON: The way state licensure works is it's not federally regulated. It's regulated by each individual state.

REICHARD: Dale Johnson is Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. He spoke with Washington Producer Harrison Watters about his organization’s amicus brief in the Chiles case.

JOHNSON: Conversion therapy was offered, first of all, not by Christians. Initially, it was offered at a time when the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders had homosexuality listed as a mental disorder. And unfortunately, there were times in the past where Christians, you know, fell for that concept.

EICHER: Some therapists in the mid-20th century experimented with psychoanalysis techniques to jar patients out of same-sex attraction…including electro-shock and shaming. The numbers are murky on how many churches and Christian therapists adopted similar practices, but Johnson says some did indeed seek conversion of the mind instead of the heart.

REICHARD: When the American Psychological Association changed course and began discouraging conversion therapy, they didn’t limit it to specific techniques.

JOHNSON: They broaden semantically the concept of conversion therapy to include any what's now called sexual orientation change efforts.

REICHARD: That means the term now covers more than aversive methods like snapping rubber bands.

JOHNSON: It also now includes anything that we would do in discussing moral basis for sexuality with an individual who who finds himself at a confused position in their life.

EICHER: The first law banning conversion therapy for minors was established in California in 2012. While a few conservative states passed laws to prevent similar bans, 23 other states followed California.

WKBW: New York now the 15th state to ban conversion therapy.

WALZ: This law makes that not longer available in Minnesota.

NBC 5: Illinois is moving to make it illegal, but it’s still available nearby.

REICHARD: While these laws are focused on sexual orientation, many lump in another category: gender identity. And that concerns California attorney Erin Friday.

FRIDAY: None of these medical societies can actually even define what gender identity is without using the word gender, and they don't define gender.

REICHARD: Friday also leads Our Duty USA, a secular organization of parents concerned about their trans-identified children.

FRIDAY: We have a parent in our in our membership, whose daughter is anorexic and trans identified. She's afraid to get her any therapeutic help, because the mental health providers only focus on the trans identity.

EICHER: Colorado’s 2019 Minor Conversion Therapy Law forbids efforts to change sexual orientation and gender identity. But it does allow two forms of gender counseling: supporting “identity exploration and development” and assistance in gender transition.

FRIDAY: It requires a one-way path of support. We're going to support your belief, your self-loathing. We're going to say. Everything is wrong with you, but you can be fixed with drugs.

REICHARD: Friday notes that many states already ban torture and other practices that some conversion therapists practice…making expansive laws unnecessary. She suspects they serve a different purpose.

FRIDAY: Really, if we want to talk about conversion therapy, the transgender movement is actually trying to convert kids who will likely grow up to be same-sex attracted to be, quote, unquote, straight by changing their their exterior so that it looks like they are then in a heterosexual relationship.

EICHER: Friday and other amicus brief writers are encouraged to see counselor Kaley Chiles challenging Colorado’s law.

WONING: Chiles is not applying a different approach to her clients who identify as LGBT than those who do not.

EICHER: Elizabeth Woning is Executive Director of the CHANGED Movement.

WONING: …a growing worldwide network of people who have left LGBTQ culture and its kind of sociopolitical identities.

REICHARD: Woning and many of her associates are professing Christians, and their amicus brief tells the stories of several people with concerns about their homosexual behavior.

WONING: And so it was essential to them that they find a like minded counselor, because, frankly, both of them believed that their, their their spiritual life was in peril because of the behavior.

EICHER: Because Colorado’s law does not specify the practices it prohibits, Woning says the ban makes it difficult for young people of faith to get the help they want.

WONING: It's largely a restriction of of religious boundaries on sexual behavior in a in a professional counseling setting.

REICHARD: Colorado argues its power to regulate professional conduct extends to the counseling room. On the other side, liberal parents and Christian counselors alike fear the consequences of states regulating conversations about unhealthy sexual practices and thinking. Here’s Johnson again.

JOHNSON: It is a debate over religious ideology as to what's most most healthy for an individual in relation to their sexuality, so we’ve seen this growing for quite some time, knowing that we were on some kind of collision course…A win in this particular case, I think would be so encouraging to the church, and I think help to buffer the radicalism that we're seeing.

NICK EICHER, HOST: Up next, sticker shock for high-skilled immigrants.

Last month, President Trump issued a proclamation that hiked the H-1B visa fee from a few hundred dollars… to $100,000 dollars. He says it’ll end abuse and safeguard American jobs. Others say it could backfire on American businesses and communities.

WORLD reporter Josh Schumacher has the story.

JOSH SCHUMACHER: To visualize the current H-1B visa debate, picture an NBA sports team.

ROBBINS: Imagine you are the Oklahoma City Thunder, and you are competing for a national championship and your MVP, your best player is a Canadian immigrant.

Jeremy Robbins is the executive director of the American Immigration Council.

In his sports analogy he says the team then puts in place a new policy…saying Canadian immigrants can no longer play for the team. The reason? The team wants to give more spots to American players.

ROBBINS: If you’re a fan of the Oklahoma City Thunder, are you going to be like, “That’s a great idea”? No, you’re going to be like, “I want my team to win. I want them to be competitive.”

And it’s that competitive edge that Robbins believes the current administration is losing sight of in its approach to the H-1B visa program. In its bid to protect American workers by keeping high-tech specialists from other countries out, he fears the White House will only end up hurting America’s chances of competing in the technology marketplace.

Here’s a little background. Congress created the H-1B visa program in 1990. The goal of the program was to help companies bring in foreign workers with special expertise that most Americans didn’t possess.

Companies could enter a lottery every year to see whether they could nab one—or a few of the 85,000 H-1B visas U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services would hand out that year.

Companies paid pocket change to enter the lottery. To qualify they had to promise to pay the worker the same amount as similar American workers and notify American workers that there was a job they were looking to hire an H-1B visa applicant for.

But over the years, the program has shifted and drawn criticism for unfairly disadvantaging American workers.

RIES: We have gotten far afield from the original intent of H-1B

Lora Ries is the director of the immigration center at the Heritage Foundation.

RIES: It has become a visa that is being used for not-specialty occupations and shutting the door, not allowing American workers to compete.

She says that companies haven’t always followed the H-1B program’s rules.

In recent years, companies such as Meta and Apple have had to pay millions in settlement agreements with the Department of Justice after being caught hiring H-1B visa applicants without considering American workers.

Ries argues that putting a steep price tag on H-1B visas will stop such abuse going forward:

RIES: What this fee does is it raises the price, it makes employers have to prioritize, okay, you can still get a H-1B, but you're gonna have to be choosier about who you're going to get such a visa for.

But Jeremy Robbins doesn't think that it will guarantee American jobs.

ROBBINS: And what's very clear from the data is that it's not a zero-sum game. It's the opposite.

Robbins says many companies will find other workarounds… like telecommuting or establishing international offices.

And he believes that’s a bad thing for the United States. Robbins points to the research of economist Giovanni Peri. He tracked H-1B visa workers and their effect on the companies that hired them—and the communities where they worked.

ROBBINS: So not only did the companies that got H-1B visas create more American jobs, the communities around them created more American jobs because there was more spending in the community, there was more innovation, there's support functions that come with it.

Robbins argues that if companies can’t bring these high-skilled workers into the country easily, American workers will actually lose in the long run.

ROBBINS: They might make the decision that you know what, like let's not even bring that employee here, let's let's put them in Canada or put them in Germany or put them someone else. And then you lose not only that employee and that spending but then you lose all of the support functions around them and all those external jobs are not created in America. They're created elsewhere.

But Lora Ries warns that something must be done to better protect the American job market. And argues that businesses need to be pushed to give Americans a better chance of advancement.

RIES: We need to get this thing back into its original intent, back into the box, so to speak, and allow American students and American workers a fair shake at applying for jobs, being interviewed for jobs, being hired for jobs, and being retained at their jobs and that's just not the situation right now.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Josh Schumacher.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Eight days into President Trump’s federal crime crackdown in Memphis, more than 270 arrests and roughly 70 illegal guns off the streets. We sent WORLD’s Myrna Brown to Memphis to find out what locals think about the crackdown.

MYRNA BROWN: Inside one of the city’s largest congregations, a local pastor issues a strong warning. Audio from Greater Imani Church in Northeast Memphis.

PASTOR: We don’t want to watch the news. But you better watch the news. You better stay aware of what’s going on. You better know. We’ve got troops in Memphis right now…

Last month, President Trump signed an order to set up a task force in Memphis, Tennessee. Sky high crime rates have put Memphis at the top of the FBI’s list including America’s most dangerous cities.

Republican Tennessee Governor Billy Lee supports the effort to crack down on crime, while Memphis mayor Paul Young is strongly opposed. Here’s Young on Fox just yesterday.

PAUL YOUNG: I didn’t ask for the national guard. That’s something that the president and the governor decided, and as mayor, that removes my ability to determine whether they come or not.

Like Mayor Young, some residents don’t like the idea, and think there are better ways to help the communities.

Standing in the morning sun, Mark Bell, a Memphis native, helps his wife unload the mini-van at the Greater Imani Church parking lot.

MYRNA BROWN: What did you think when you heard the National Guard was coming?

MARK BELL: I kind of had mixed emotions. Being a former veteran, I’m not a fan of the US military being deployed to municipalities and cities. I think things like providing something for our youth, programs and things like that would be better for us in the long term versus the national guard being deployed because right now they’ll be here. What happens after the six months when they deploy?

Another Memphis native, Grace Walsh, also has a question.

GRACE WALSH: We have been known to lock people up one day and they’re out the next, so how is that helping the crime?

Ralph Harrington believes both questions are valid, but he says there’s something more to consider when talking about the city’s high crime rate.

RALPH HARRINGTON: Actually I think it starts in the home. I think we need to talk to the parents and the parents talk to the kids and when it’s a stronger home, it’s a strong church. If it’s a strong church, it’s a strong community.

Harrington says what’s missing in Memphis and other crime-ridden cities is the church.

HARRINGTON: I think the role of the church is to lead. That’s what the church has always been about.

MYRNA: Not just this church but generally speaking, is the church doing that now?

HARRINGTON: I think we’ve got a ways to go. I think we once were but sometimes even churches get distracted.

About 15 minutes to the east, service at Bellevue Baptist Church is just ending. Audio from Bellevue Baptist.

AUDIO: [PASTOR PRAYING]

SOUND: [FEET SHUFFLING THROUGH PARKING LOT]

AUDIO: Good Afternoon

Outside, in the parking lot, Phil and Brenda Thomas are already in their car with their windows down.

BROWN: When you heard that the national guard and some of the other law enforcement agencies were coming. What did you think?

PHIL THOMAS: Hallelujah. We can always use the help. Is it the answer though? Christ is the answer. The Bible tells us that man’s heart is deceitfully wicked.

Tina Downey says she’s seen that evil in her own neighborhood.

TINA DOWNEY: Sycamore View and Pleasant View…that area down there, especially that hotel where prostitution and drugs are running rampant.

Downey says she and her family welcome the outside help.

DOWNEY: Four or five nights ago, my son was out on the back deck and he saw the helicopters going by. But he went out there and he was waving at them. He said alright.

Walking towards his car, carrying a backpack, 27-year-old John Knight says he was disheartened to see the National Guard in the city where he was born and raised.

JOHN KNIGHT: I mean respectively, I just feel like we all have a part to do. And not just in our city, just in general, people of the world if we did what was needed and what was right and what was just, this wouldn’t be called for. God has a plan for everything you know. And so, maybe this is for the Christians to wake up and to start praying more for our city. We’re just not handling business. And we don’t know how to act. So, that’s why there’s a need for this. So I feel like when we start acting like we have some home training, things will get better.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Myrna Brown in Memphis.

NICK EICHER, HOST: In Southern California, people say it’ll take an act of God to bring real-estate prices down.

Turns out, that’s exactly what happened in the LA suburb of Monrovia.

In what insurance adjusters literally call an act of God—a massive tree came crashing through a one-bedroom bungalow, and sliced it clean in two.

Now what’s left is on the market for what neighbors say is “half off”, about half a million dollars, 499K to be precise.

The listing says it’s a fixer-upper; the listing agent touts, “open floor plan.” As in wide open: quite a view.

It’s The World and Everything in It.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Today is Tuesday, October 7th.

Thank you for turning to WORLD Radio to help start your day.

Good morning. I’m Mary Reichard.

NICK EICHER, HOST: And I’m Nick Eicher.

Coming next on The World and Everything in It: a somber anniversary.

Two years ago today, Hamas terrorists stormed across the border from Gaza into Israel. They slaughtered more than 1,200 people, and took another 250 hostage.

REICHARD: The war that began that morning still rages, and families still wait for their loved ones to come home.

WORLD Reporter Travis Kircher reports from Israel.

AUDIO: [Sound of Western Wall prayers]

TRAVIS KIRCHER: It’s the hope of seemingly every Jew in Israel. From prayers whispered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem:

AMRAM: That we should come to the end of the war soon enough, that we should have the hostages back…

…to demonstrations last week outside the U.S. Embassy branch office in Tel Aviv:

AUDIO: [Demonstrations in Hebrew]

…where activists chanted and waved signs calling on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and U.S. President Donald Trump to cut some kind—any kind—of a deal with Hamas. One that would secure the immediate release of dozens of hostages still held by the terror group.

And in a public plaza outside the Tel Aviv Museum of Art—a more somber scene:

AUDIO: [Piano playing]

…where Or Orel Sharabi plays piano under a nearby tree.

The music and warm sunshine may be soothing here, but it’s clear from the yellow ribbons and jarring posters that all is not well. In fact, just under two years ago, this plaza got a new name: Hostages Square.

SHARABI: I would prefer that it would be not like that. Just for people to just come here to celebrate good things.

SOUND: [Hostages Square]

In the weeks after the massacre, families and supporters of the more than 250 hostages kidnapped by the terror group Hamas claimed this plaza as their own. And the signs are everywhere as a memorial. The charred remains of a bombed-out car left after the attack. Posters hanging from tree branches showing the faces of loved ones still in captivity. Even a series of long tables, with empty chairs and place settings symbolizing a future feast for each of the hostages when they finally come home.

Caleb McCall is visiting from Tennessee.

MCCALL: It just really brings to life anti-Semitism, that it’s real. That it’s happening across the globe, and it is very, very sad.

But while pilgrims like McCall may experience October 7th in the abstract, for others, it’s far more personal.

DAVID: It's hell.

That’s Ilay David. His younger brother Evyatar was one of the concertgoers at the Nova Music Festival on October 7th. The two brothers grew up in a small town north of Tel Aviv.

DAVID: He’s one of my best friends. We both love music and every week we used to play music together.

In addition to music, Ilay says his brother loves socializing and sharing Shabbat dinner with their mother, father, and sister.

DAVID: He’s the kindest person I know. He's the best son to my parents. I'm his older brother, but I do learn from him how to be a better son.

Ilay says he and his brother had just returned from a family vacation shortly before the Nova Music Festival. Evyatar left at midnight the evening before the attacks. The next morning, their lives turned upside down.

DAVID: We woke up to the sirens, to the alarms, we run to the bomb shelter. My mom is trying to communicate with Evyatar…

Ilay knew the Nova Music Festival was on the very edge of the Gaza border, so he knew Evyatar was in danger. Six hours later when a video emerged of his brother in the hands of Hamas, Ilay’s heart sank.

DAVID: He was walking on, walking on his feet. He was tied up, shirt torn. He was bruised without his glasses, and a terrorist was holding him from his neck, dragging him inside the Gaza Strip.

Ilay says that video left him seeing red.

DAVID: I could only scream and curse and punch the wall and kick the wall. But then I realize that he's alive, and that's something. That's something.

Since that day, nearly 150 hostages have been returned alive and the bodies of nearly 60 have been recovered. Hamas is still holding around 50. More than half of that number are feared to be dead.

AUDIO: [No matter how, hostage deal now]

Over the past two years, family members and supporters have pressured Netanyahu to reach a deal with Hamas to bring the hostages home—no matter the concessions.

AUDIO: [Demonstration in Hebrew]

But Netanyahu insists any deal must result in the demilitarization of Gaza and the dismantlement of Hamas, or else October 7^th could happen again.

For his part, Ilay says he knows his brother is still alive. In February, when fellow hostages were released, Ilay says Hamas cruelly made Evyatar watch their release from a nearby van.

DAVID: They forced them to watch, they shut the door of the van, and they throw them back to the dungeon, right after they beg for their lives.

And in August, Evyatar appeared in another video. Ilay can’t bear to watch it..

SOUND: [Evyatar talking, digging in video]

In the video, Evyatar is seen digging his own grave. His body is emaciated and he’s been surviving on little more than beans and lentils.

DAVID: You could barely recognize his voice in this video. I recognized it when I heard it by accident, to be honest, but my sister couldn't, and he was so weak. I mean, it barely, was barely able to speak. He did it only to he got a treat, a prize in the video.

Ilay knows the clock is ticking on his brother’s life. He says doctors have told him that in his current state, Evyatar’s body could give out at any time from shock and hunger. And he says he has one message for his brother:

DAVID: I would say that I love him, that all the family loves him, and all of his friends. And we are not going to give up until he's home, and he cannot give up. And I know that he doesn’t give up but I want him to know that we are thinking the same. Nobody can give up.

He also says that if Hamas agrees to any deal, the international community must hold their feet to the fire to make sure they carry it out.

SOUND: [Piano playing]

So for now, the piano will keep playing in Hostages Square. And Ilay will keep praying. Praying that someday, the empty table in this plaza will be filled with food and laughter, when the missing sons and daughters of October 7^th finally come home.

DAVID: I miss his hug, I miss his smile. I miss those moments when we play together.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Travis Kircher in Israel.

NICK EICHER, HOST: Today is Tuesday, October 7th. Good morning! This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Nick Eicher.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: And I’m Mary Reichard. WORLD Opinions contributor Joe Rigney is sounding the alarm over what he calls “avatar advocacy”, using the likeness of the dead to push the politics of the living.

JOE RIGNEY: On September 14th, church goers at Plano’s Prestonwood Baptist Church received an unusual message—an exhortation from the late Charlie Kirk.

AI KIRK: First, I want you to know I'm fine…not because my body is fine, but because my soul is secure in Christ.

Other churches played the same video.

AI KIRK: Death is not the end, it's a promotion.

The message wasn’t from Charlie himself; it was an AI-generated response using a simulation of Charlie’s voice and cadence.

AI KIRK: Don't waste one second mourning me. I knew the risks of standing up in this cultural moment, and I do it all over again.

In the one-minute message, AI-Charlie exhorted the congregation to not let the violence divide the country, nor let it lead to fear or retaliation. Instead, he told them to double down on faith and family.

Attendees at Prestonwood responded with a standing ovation.

The clip is another phase in the growing controversy over the use of AI avatars of the deceased. It began as a way of bringing back crucial characters in movies like Star Wars and Fast and Furious after the actors died…but it’s quickly become something…much murkier.

Former CNN anchor Jim Acosta recently conducted an interview with an AI-generated avatar of Joaquin Oliver—the 17-year-old victim of the 2018 Parkland school shooting.

ACOSTA: Joaquin, I would like to know what your solution would be for gun violence.

AI OLIVER: Great question. I believe in a mix of stronger gun control laws, mental health support and community engagement…

The interview with AI-Joaquin was criticized from both left and right as “a grotesque puppet show.” The most recurring criticism was the use of a dead boy as an avatar for a particular political agenda. Joaquin’s parents, Manuel and Patricia, have publicly stated that they created the avatar in order to—in their words— “keep his voice alive” and “fight for a world without gun violence.”

This, of course, is not new, and grieving families across the political spectrum have used the image and memory of their deceased loved ones to advocate for policies they believe would have prevented their deaths.

But the use of Artificial Intelligence takes this practice to another level. The use of such AI characters as avatars for activism highlights the blurring of the lines between the real and the virtual that our technology represents. Acosta’s conversation with Manuel Oliver demonstrates the tension. On the one hand, Oliver insisted that he is in no way “trying to bring his son back.” At the same time, Acosta asserted this:

ACOSTA: And what's amazing about this Manny is that, you know, we've heard from the parents, we've heard from the politicians now we're hearing from one of the kids…

But we’re not. The image on the screen was not Joaquin, but AI-Joaquin, a simulacrum built by programmers who combined LLM’s with images, texts, and videos from Joaquin’s life. Joaquin was and is not present.

The same is true of AI-Charlie Kirk. One pastor may invite his congregation to— quote—“hear what Charlie is saying to us regarding what happened to him,” but we’re not. Charlie and Joaquin are both dead, their lives tragically ended by evil men, and no amount of technological necromancy can change that.

The Bible tells us that human beings are made in the image of God. The question is whether we are truly honoring that image when we construct an image of an image and get it to say the things we want it to say? In our desire to extend our lost loved ones, are we losing their humanity? More importantly, are we losing our own?

I’m Joe Rigney.

NICK EICHER, HOST: Tomorrow: Washington Wednesday with Hunter Baker. And a World Tour special report on persecution of Christians in Nigeria. That and more tomorrow.

I’m Nick Eicher.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: And I’m Mary Reichard.

The World and Everything in It comes to you from WORLD Radio. WORLD’s mission is Biblically objective journalism that informs, educates, and inspires.

The Psalmist writes, “Lord, you have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. You return man to dust and say, ‘Return, O children of man!’ For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.” —Psalm 90:1-4

Go now in grace and peace.

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