The World and Everything in It — October 21, 2019

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Good morning!

Can a state abolish insanity as a defense to criminal acts? The justices take up the insanity defense.

BREYER: The first defendant thinks that Smith is a dog. The second defendant knows it’s a person, but thinks the dog told him to do it. Okay? What’s the difference? 


NICK EICHER, HOST: That’s ahead on Legal Docket.

Also today the Monday Moneybeat: weak numbers on retail sales and manufacturing sound alarm bells on the economy.

Plus, the WORLD Radio History Book. Today, the 90th anniversary of “Black Thursday.”

And J.C. Derrick with a word of encouragement to break out of our electronic bubbles to build flesh-and-blood communities.

REICHARD: It’s Monday, October 21st. This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Mary Reichard.

EICHER: And I’m Nick Eicher. Good morning!

REICHARD: Now the news. Here’s Kent Covington.

KENT COVINGTON, NEWS ANCHOR: Trump admin addresses fears of ISIS resurgence » Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is working to reassure wary lawmakers that the troop pullout in northern Syria will not fuel an ISIS resurgence. Pompeo told ABC’s This Week… 

POMPEO: I’m very confident that this administration’s efforts to crush ISIS will continue. 

But the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee said that assurance won’t help him sleep any better. Senator Bob Menendez said making sure ISIS is contained was more than enough cause to keep a troop presence in the region. 

MENENDEZ: The Department of Defense inspector general tells us there are still 18,000 ISIS fighters in Syria. If the 10,000 that have been detained by the Kurds get released, that’s a potential fighting force of hardened fighters of 30,000.

The Ranking Member on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Republican Congressman Michael McCaul said he’s also concerned. 

MCCAUL: We want to make sure at all costs that these prisons are protected. I’ve been given assurance that they are right now, but it’s a very fluid situation over there. 

Kurdish fighters have reportedly evacuated some areas along the Turkish border under the teams of the U.S. brokered ceasefire. 

Mulvaney seeks to clarify quid pro quo remarks » Acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney was doing damage control on Sunday follow his remarks last week. 

Mulvaney told Fox News Sunday that while the Trump administration held up aid payments to Ukraine, it did not attach political strings to that aid. But he conceded that earlier comments led many to conclude the opposite. 

Last Thursday Mulvaney answered questions about why President Trump held up some $400 million in military aid to Ukraine. He said it was largely because he was irritated by how little “lethal aide” European countries were sending to Ukraine and because he was concerned about corruption in Ukraine. But he added…

MULVANEY: Did he also mention to me in the past that the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely, no question about that. But that’s it. That’s why we held up the money. 

In response to a follow-up question from a reporter, Mulvaney said—quote— “The look back to what happened in 2016 was certainly part of the thing that he was worried about in corruption with that nation, and that is absolutely appropriate.”

Yesterday, Mulvaney sought to clarify his remarks. 

MULVANEY: It’s legitimate to tie the aid to corruption. It’s legitimate to tie the aid to foreign aid from other countries. That’s what I was talking about with the three. Can I see how people took that the wrong way? Absolutely. But I never said there was a quid pro quo because there isn’t. 

President Trump said he believes Mulvaney has clarified his earlier remarks, and he has full confidence in him. 

U.S. soldiers killed in accident at Fort Stewart in Georgia » Three U.S. soldiers died and three others were injured on Sunday in a training accident in Georgia. 

Officials said the accident occurred at Fort Stewart near Savannah. The soldiers were with the 1st Armored Brigade Combat Team and were in a Bradley fighting vehicle that was involved in an accident early in the morning. They were not immediately identified.

The Army says the three injured soldiers were evacuated and taken to an Army hospital, where they are being evaluated and treated.

British prime minister races to beat Brexit deadline » British Prime Minister Boris Johnson will be working overtime this week as he tries to win over rebellious lawmakers ahead of next week’s Brexit deadline.

The UK is slated to leave the European Union one week from Thursday. And Johnson insists Brexit must happen on schedule even though he sent a letter to the EU asking for an extension. Lawmakers passed a law forcing him to seek a Brexit delay if a deal wasn’t ratified by now. 

JOHNSON: Whatever letters they may seek to force the government to write, it cannot change my judgement that further delay is pointless, expensive, and deeply corrosive of public trust. 

Johnson sent the letter, but he didn’t sign it. And he followed it with another letter making it clear that he doesn’t actually want an extension. 

Parliament gathered for special session on Saturday but did not vote on Johnson’s newly renegotiated divorce deal. Instead they voted on a measure to delay a vote on the Brexit plan until Parliament comes up with a plan on how to implement it. 

AUDIO: They ayes to the right 322. The nos to the left, 306.  

And passing an implementation bill will take more time. EU officials have not yet answered Johnson’s halfhearted request for another delay. 

Maleficent sequel tops weekend box office » At the weekend box office, Disney’s Maleficent: Mistress of Evil debuted in the top spot. 

TRAILER: You have done an admirable job going against your nature to raise this child. But now she will finally get the love of a real mother. 

The Disney sequel took in $36 million for the weekend—a solid opening, but short of expectations. 

That bumped Joker to second place with another $29 million. The R-rated Zombieland 2 opened in third place with $27 million. 

You can find WORLD’s reviews of current films—along with ratings and content information—at WNG.org/movies.

A quick note of correction: On Friday’s program, I misspoke and referred to Democratic lawmaker Steny Hoyer as a Senator. He is of course Maryland’s Congressman from the 5th congressional district.

I’m Kent Covington. Straight ahead: Mary has more Supreme Court arguments on Legal Docket. Plus, J.C. Derrick on building community. This is The World and Everything in It.

MARY REICHARD: Good Monday morning to you. You’re listening to The World and Everything in It this 21st of October, 2019. I’m Mary Reichard.

NICK EICHER: And I’m Nick Eicher. Good morning to you!

Today we continue our coverage of oral arguments at the Supreme Court. And a warning for parents: this one has difficult details that may not be appropriate for young ones. 

We have about a minute before we get into it and let’s just say we are talking about what ordinarily would be a capital crime case.

But something else about this case. 

What Mary is going to tell you about today was actually the first case the justices heard this new term. And so because, Mary, you started with the LGBT cases, it wasn’t until you plowed through this first one that you learned about a new Supreme Court policy that just took effect.

REICHARD: Right, it lets lawyers talk for two whole minutes without interruption. That may not sound like much, but in reality it’s a big change. I can tell you of instances where, literally, the lawyer says, “Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the court …” and he or she is immediately interrupted. I can tell you about lawyers prepping statements and not being able to give them. It’s quite remarkable. 

I remember Justice Clarence Thomas saying his southern sensibilities felt violated when lawyers could barely get a sentence out before being showered with questions. So he must be pleased.

I know I am, and it’s because I don’t have to splice audio so frequently to create a coherent statement!

EICHER: Ok, now let’s get to the background for our case today, an interesting question where crime and punishment, policy, state’s rights, and morality all come together.

The legal question asks whether a state can abolish insanity as a defense to a crime.

The insanity defense is an affirmative defense. It says, “yes, I did the crime,” but excuses culpability because of psychiatric illness.

REICHARD: Most states allow it. But after the jury verdict in 1982 that declared President Ronald Reagan’s would-be assassin, John Hinckley, Jr., not guilty by reason of insanity, a few states changed their laws to alter the use of insanity as a defense to a crime.

EICHER: Kansas was one of those states. There, a defendant can show evidence of mental illness to prove he didn’t intentionally commit the crime. But Kansas doesn’t allow someone to use that evidence to try to establish that he lacked rational capacity. That’s the part necessary to prove in order to hold him responsible for what he’d done.

REICHARD: To understand the difference, consider the horrific drowning of five children in 2001 by Andrea Yates, a case in Texas. A jury found her not guilty by reason of insanity. Yates admitted to killing her children. She tried to explain that she wanted to save them from eternal damnation as a result of her poor mothering. 

So Yates admitted she did those crimes, but in Texas she could argue that psychiatric illness made her irrational, taking away her capacity to understand right from wrong.

EICHER: Right, but had Yates lived in Kansas, she’d have failed with that defense. That’s because in Kansas, she’d only be able to show her mental illness made it so she did not intend to kill her children. But she did intend to do it. She admitted that. So instead of a mental institution, she’d likely have been sent to prison in Kansas.

REICHARD: Now for the facts before the Supreme Court arising out of Kansas.

Kraig Kahler seemed to be happily married for years, but then things started to go south. His wife was unhappy and started an affair. She filed for divorce. Kahler became more and more upset, and unhealthy tendencies exacerbated as time went on: depression, paranoia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, among others.

Then in 2009 he drove to where his family was staying. He shot and killed his wife, their two daughters and his wife’s grandmother, in front of their son. 

His trial lawyer argued Kahler’s severe depression meant he couldn’t understand reality, that he’d fallen into a dissociative state where he couldn’t control his actions. 

But in Kansas, that’s not relevant. A jury imposed the death penalty on him after a two-week trial.

Kahler’s lawyer at the Supreme Court, Sarah Schrup, argued her client ought to be given a chance to make the case to the jury during the guilt phase of proceedings that he didn’t know right from wrong, not just at the penalty phase after a finding of guilt.

She faced lots of skepticism. Listen to Justice Samuel Alito:

ALITO: At the penalty phase he was able to argue, ‘I shouldn’t get a death sentence because I didn’t know that what I was doing was morally wrong.’ And you’d think that if the jury believed that, they wouldn’t have imposed the death penalty. But they did. I mean you have to keep in mind what he did. This is an intelligent man. He sneaked up on the house, where his wife and her mother and his children were staying. He killed his ex-wife. He killed her mother. He executed his two teenage daughters. One of them is heard on tape crying. He nevertheless shot her to death. Now, this is the stuff from which you’re going to make a defense he didn’t know that what he was doing was morally wrong, much less he didn’t know what he was doing was legally wrong?

Schrup pointed out that jurors typically decide culpability in the earlier guilt phase of trial, so waiting to consider mental state during the penalty phase is just too late to protect her client’s rights.

Justice Alito wasn’t having it. You’ll hear him mention the initialism DSM. He’s referring to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

ALITO: If that were the general rule in criminal law that you cannot be convicted if you believe that what you’ve done is moral, that would revolutionize criminal law. Is it sufficient if the person has something that is considered to be a mental disorder in the DSM? And it has been calculated that one in five people in the United States has some mental disorder. So we’re talking about 60 plus—60 million plus people.  All of them could go to the jury on the question of whether they had the capacity to know that what they were doing when they committed the crime was morally wrong.

SCHRUP: Justice Alito, they should be given the opportunity to at least try. This shouldn’t be legislatively cut off at the knees.

Schrup argued that history is on her side since the 1500s.  That Kansas is the outlier violating her client’s due-process rights. 

Justice Elena Kagan posed a provocative question about changing times.

KAGAN: I could give you some ways in which the criminal law of olden times seems remarkably archaic to us now: marital rape exception, maybe sodomy laws. I’m sure that 
there are others that I could list. You know, what does due-process require we hang on to, notwithstanding changing times? 


Schrup replied fundamental fairness as practiced in the majority of states is what due-process requires. And besides that, this particular defense is rare. It’s not as though the floodgates would open if the insanity defense were again permitted in Kansas.

SCHRUP: It’s invoked in less than 1 percent of the cases and successful in only a quarter of that. We’re not talking about a huge number of people. But for the people that it really matters, there is no mechanism in these states to protect them.

When the solicitor general of Kansas got up to defend Kansas law, Justice Sonia Sotomayor was the skeptic.

SOTOMAYOR: You’re saying the same thing with something like duress: I intend to kill someone, but it’s because somebody’s holding a gun to my head. All 50 states would let you off. But you’re now saying it’s ok to stigmatize you with a criminal conviction even though in fact you may be insane.

Stigma or not, Crouse countered that the deep roots of history are actually on his side, because up until the 1800’s, criminal intent was the crucial inquiry, not mental illness, as the other side is saying.

Then Justice Stephen Breyer spun out one of his scenarios, designed to distinguish close matters of mental state. In Kansas, someone who shot a person thinking it was a dog wouldn’t be guilty of murder. 

But with a slight twist, Justice Breyer highlighted a conundrum. Here’s his lengthy exchange with Kansas solicitor general Crouse that I’ve edited for clarity:

BREYER: Imagine two defendants. Both defendants, 1 and 2, are certified by whatever board of psychiatrists you 
want as totally insane. All right? The first defendant shoots and kills Smith. The second defendant shoots and kills Jones. 
 The first defendant thinks that Smith is a dog. The second defendant knows it’s a person, but thinks the dog told him to do it. Okay? What’s the difference? 


CROUSE: So I think that’s—the difference is criminal intent in the first situation because, as I understand the hypothetical, the individual intends to commit a 
crime against a human being. 


BREYER: But I’m looking for something different between the two defendants. The dog, he told me to do it. They are both crazy. And why does Kansas say one is guilty, the other is not guilty?

CROUSE: So I — I think that this Court’s cases have historically allowed legislative bodies—

BREYER: I don’t care what the cases say at this moment. I’m interested in a practical pragmatic purpose in why the law should treat cases differently. Same question, I’ve just now repeated it three times, and I am listening for your answer.

CROUSE: The problem is that states have grappled with this and they’ve made different moral judgments as to who is morally responsible or not. And this Court’s cases allow the state legislatures or federal Congress to determine whether that person should be or should not be held responsible. 


The federal government argued in support of Kansas. Listen to assistant to the Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar warning the high court not to create more problems.

PRELOGAR: There would still be a question of how you define who is the insane. That’s a legal concept. It’s one that’s yielded no single formulation. And I think for this Court to try to articulate a theory of moral culpability could throw into question state laws across the nation that are trying to make these difficult judgments.

As for Kraig Kahler, questions from the justices did not seem to lean in his favor. Justice Kagan noted that even in states where the insanity defense is permitted, Kahler would not be found insane. His own expert noted how he had a manipulative personality, asking him how to answer questions to mitigate his sentence.

If a majority rules in favor of Kahler, it’ll affect only the four states that got rid of the insanity defense. But a decision in favor of Kansas could serve to encourage other states to do the same thing.

The justices must balance competing interests: state discretion in criminal matters versus err on the side of protecting the mentally ill.

And that’s this week’s Legal Docket.

MARY REICHARD: Coming next on The World and Everything in It, the Monday Moneybeat.

NICK EICHER: First today, an alarming sign of weakness in the economy. According to the Commerce Department, retail sales suffered a month-on-month decline in September and that hasn’t happened in seven months. 

You may have heard that 70 percent of the economy is PCEs—Personal Consumption Expenditures—and that’s true. PCEs are purchases of goods and services and they are by far the biggest driver in calculating Gross Domestic Product, GDP. That lackluster retail sales figure is an important component, but it’s not the whole thing.

Retail sales represent goods purchases and they account for a little more than a third of overall PCEs. The other two thirds is services.

Still, the September decline in retail sales is a worrying sign.

This week, the government issues its 3rd quarter GDP estimate. It’s expected the same day the Federal Reserve meets to decide whether to cut interest rates for a third time this year to help head off a possible recession. The economic expansion is in its 11th year, a record.

REICHARD: For its part, the Fed has its own preview of economic activity, the so-called “beige book,” as the central bank calls its dossier on the economy. The beige book says the economy expanded only modestly in September into October, citing “persistent trade tensions and slower global growth” weighing down the American economy.

Those on the Fed board who want another rate cut will likely point to the findings in the beige book to bolster their case.

EICHER: The Fed also last week published a report on factory output in September and it shows American manufacturing declined half a percentage point. It would’ve been just a one-tenth decline had it not been for significant softness in car-making. That recently settled strike at General Motors accounted for a 4.2 percent drop in auto manufacturing.

REICHARD: A mixed week on Wall Street, with three of the four major stock indexes posting gains. The Dow Jones Industrial Average posted a loss, falling two-tenths of one percent. The Russell 2000 small-company stock index was the best performer, gaining 1.6 percent. The tech-heavy Nasdaq picked up four-tenths, and the Standard & Poor’s 500 gained half a point. The S&P 500 is now just 1.3 percent below its all-time high, set back in July.

EICHER: And that is today’s Monday Moneybeat.

NICK EICHER: Police in Wisconsin credit a rather uncommon anti-theft feature and say it may have stopped a grand-theft-auto before it got started.

A woman in the capital city, Madison, woke up one morning to find that someone had been inside her home. Her purse was missing and along with it, her car keys. 

But when she walked into her garage, she found the garage door and the driver’s side door of her car both wide open with the keys still dangling from the ignition.

What saved the car was not a howling alarm, not a computerized ignition kill switch. Nope, the perpetrators evidently gave up after finding it was a  manual transmission. Couldn’t drive a stick!

Police eventually found the stolen purse in another car stolen from another location and later abandoned. That car apparently had an automatic transmission.

It’s The World and Everything in It.

NICK EICHER: Today is Monday, October 21st. Thank you for turning to WORLD Radio to help start your day. Good morning. I’m Nick Eicher.

MARY REICHARD: And I’m Mary Reichard. Coming next on The World and Everything in It:  the WORLD Radio History Book.

75 years ago, the beginning of the largest naval battle of World War II. Plus, the grand opening of one of the most distinctive buildings in the world.

EICHER: But first, one of the worst economic events in modern world history. Here’s Paul Butler.

AUDIO: [ROARING TWENTIES MUSIC]

PAUL BUTLER, REPORTER: In the 1920’s the economy was roaring. Unemployment fell below 4 percent. Average salaries grew exponentially. The United States was the world’s largest manufacturer of consumer goods. And investing became everyman’s past time. 

FRANK CRUMIT: A TALE OF THE TICKER (1929 STOCK MARKET SONG) [LYRIC] “This little pig went to market, where they buy and sell the stocks…”

Newspapers boasted of laborers becoming millionaires in the stock market. Many bought stocks “on the margin”—or purchasing shares with a small down-payment of their own money, and borrowing the rest from brokers or banks. The loans were risky, but from 1921 to 1929, the U.S. Stock Market increased in value six-fold. So a lot of people were willing to take the risk to make a quick buck. 

In 1929, things began to change. On March 25th, the stock market lost 10 percent of its value. Several banks failed. Brokers called in their loans, and many investors lost most if not all of their gains. 

Throughout the summer, though, the stock market recovered and even set new records. However, manufacturing and production slowed dramatically. Some economists warned of a coming crisis, but investors were soon borrowing money again to cash in. 

CLIP: Somehow, it didn’t last forever. 

Throughout the autumn, the markets became less stable. By the third week of October, they’d devalued by 20 percent from their summer high. On Thursday, October 24th, the markets plummeted. The crash of 1929 had begun. 

CLIP: The time came when the ticker tape in the broker’s office told a new story…

The markets fell another 25 percent the following week. Many investors, both large and small, lost everything. 

CLIP: Sixteen and a half million shares of stock sold in a single day. Sold hopelessly, desperately, at any price…

Conventional wisdom blames the Great Depression, at least in part, on the Crash of 1929. While the rapid loss in stock prices contributed to the Great Depression, it was only one factor of many.

Over four years, beginning in 1929, industrial production cut in half. Disposable incomes dropped by more than a fourth. Unemployment rose eight-fold to the point that at the height of the Depression, one in four American workers was out of a job. As for stock prices, they collapsed to merely a tenth of their pre-crash high.

But since June of 1932, the market has followed a mostly positive trajectory. Though it still has a way of both making and breaking fortunes. The free market, after all, is a system of profit and loss.

FRANK CRUMIT: A TALE OF THE TICKER (1929 STOCK MARKET SONG) [LYRIC]: “Oh the Market is not so good today, your stocks look kind of sick, in fact they all drop down a point each time the tickers tick…

Next, October  23rd, 1944. 

BROUGHT TO ACTION: For the men of the third fleet, this was the climax to a battle they’d been waging for months. The men that were over Saipan in June, over Guam in July, Palao in September were moving west…  

Audio from the invasion film: “Brought To Action.” 

The Battle of Leyte Gulf occurred near the Philippine islands of Leyte, Samar, and Luzon. The Americans and Australians knew if they could recapture the islands from the Japanese, they would separate the Imperial military from critical supply lines.

The naval and air combat featured four fronts from October 23rd, through the 26th. 

Some of the U.S. battleships engaged in the action were survivors of the Pearl Harbor attack. This time, in open water, the U.S. navy and air power proved superior.  

BROUGHT TO ACTION: There was no place in the Philippine Sea this day where they could hide from the most devastating attack launched in the Pacific.  

The Imperial Japanese Navy lost 26 warships during the Battle of Leyte Gulf—its greatest loss of the war. Many that survived the engagement were either sunk during retreat or later while awaiting repairs in Japanese harbors. 

And finally, October 20th, 1973, in Sydney, Australia:

ELIZABETH: I join with you Mr. Premier in paying tribute to the many people…

Queen Elizabeth the Second tightly clutches her notes and skirt during the blustery opening ceremonies of one of the most distinctive buildings in all the world. 

ELIZABETH: I have much pleasure in declaring the Sydney Opera House, open. [APPLAUSE]

Thirty-four years after its opening, the United Nations added the Sydney Opera House to its World Heritage list of culturally significant sites. It is currently undergoing a multi-year improvement project. The $228 million price-tag includes improved accessibility, equipment upgrades, and much-needed acoustic treatment.

That’s this week’s WORLD Radio History Book. I’m Paul Butler.

MARY REICHARD: Today is Monday, October 21st. Good morning! This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Mary Reichard.

NICK EICHER: And I’m Nick Eicher. WORLD Radio’s J.C. Derrick now with some observations on our tendency to self-segregate.

J.C. DERRICK, COMMENTATOR: I often do my morning work at a local Starbucks here in Dallas. Typically my head is down, headphones in, and I’m glued to my computer screen. 

Still, I can’t help but people watch at times. There’s always a range of interesting things to observe, from a person’s Bible reading to contentious work meetings.

One thing I’ve noticed is the increasing number of people who walk in, grab their drink, and walk out. Rarely do these people speak a word. No hello, no “thanks for making my drink.” 

It’s certainly an efficient way to order, thanks to the Starbucks app. They’re in and out in seconds. 

But I’ve noticed a trend: many of these people have scowls on their faces. Or at the very least, few seem happy. The handy app promotes efficiency, but the users seem worse for it. 

On the other hand, people waiting in line are more often chatting—with each other and the baristas. Smiles and laughs aren’t uncommon over there.  

This observation seems relevant to at least three cultural trends. 

First, we have in our country an epidemic of people who do not feel like they’re part of a community. Fewer people know their neighbors. Fewer are going to church. Fewer are involved in community associations and activities: from the Rotary Club to Little League baseball, numbers are down. 

These associations are the cultural bedrock Alexis de Tocqueville identified as what made America so unique. 

Meantime, a lack of community creates a breeding ground for mental health problems. 

And that leads to the second trend: We have a worsening suicide problem. The American Psychological Association reports that suicide rose some 30 percent in the United States between the year 2000 and 2016. 

Obviously there are many contributing factors to that statistic, but loneliness is one of them. Community helps combat mental health problems. 

Third, racial strife continues to bedevil our culture. While there is no silver-bullet solution, friendships with people who are different than you is a good start. 

A study by the Public Religion Research Institute found most of us don’t do a good job of that. It found the average white person has one black friend, one Latino friend, and one Asian friend. Out of 100. 

The average black American has eight white friends out of 100. Some 75 percent of whites and 67 percent of blacks have entirely homogenous social networks. 

So where do diverse friendships come from? Well, not from a government program or some grand plan. And not from social media echo chambers.

Friendship starts with “hello.” So does loving our neighbor. 

And to get to that point, it might take spending more time on the front porch. 

It might take less time staring down at our phones. 

Or it might take the extra minute to order in the Starbucks line.

For WORLD Radio, I’m J.C. Derrick.

NICK EICHER: Tomorrow, you’ll meet a woman who helps keep ships in line at one of the busiest harbors in America.

And Kim Henderson with her own story of courtroom-forgiveness.

That and more tomorrow. 

I’m Nick Eicher.

MARY REICHARD: And I’m Mary Reichard.

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The Bible says: My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

Go now in grace and peace.

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