Pursuing order in an age of chaos

NICK EICHER, HOST: Coming up next on The World and Everything in It: the political legacy of former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger.

Few diplomats have had as much influence on American foreign policy for as long as Kissinger.

While he is most noted for serving as Richard Nixon’s National Security Advisor and Secretary of State, Kissinger advised a total of 12 presidents in various capacities from John F. Kennedy to President Joe Biden.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Even in retirement, Kissinger continued to meet with foreign leaders. Just this summer, Kissinger visited China for an audience with Chinese President Xi Jinping. Audio here from NBC News.

HENRY KISSINGER: It is extraordinarily courteous of you to arrange the meeting where my first meeting with a Chinese leader took place.

Kissinger reflecting on how his first visit and last visit to China ended up in the same room.

EICHER: Joining us now to talk more about Kissinger’s legacy is William Inboden. He served on the National Security Council under President George W. Bush and is now a professor at the University of Florida. He’s also a regular contributor to World Opinions.

REICHARD: Will, Good morning.

WILLIAM INBODEN: Morning Mary, great to be with you.

REICHARD: In your World Opinions article last week, you note that Kissinger was the first and, so far, only person to serve as National Security Adviser and Secretary of State for several years in the 1970s. He was a remarkable diplomat. Where did he come from? And what are a few key things that shaped his approach to foreign policy?

INBODEN: Yeah, he has in addition to this remarkable diplomatic career, just a remarkable American story. You know, so he was born in Germany. He came of age in a Jewish family in Germany in the 1930s, when he and his family were subjected to growing anti-semitism and persecution from the Nazi party there. And then they fled as refugees to the United States in 1938, just ahead of Hitler implementing the Holocaust and its efforts to exterminate all of European Jewry. And Kissinger started to develop this worldview which prioritizes the importance of order and stability, because he had seen that when order and stability breaks down, as it had in Germany, with with chaos with hyperinflation, with rampant crime, that people will sometimes turn to a strong man, in this case, the most extreme version of a strong man in Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. And that, of course, led to the near destruction of the world. And so that was one of the foundational tenets for Kissinger's foreign policy is preserving order and stability in the world. Because even though that may not be the best outcome, it helps prevent the worst outcomes.

EICHER: One thing Kissinger is noted for is the way he embodied realpolitik. politics focused on practical factors rather than ideals. Why did that matter during the Cold War?

INBODEN: Yeah, this is where we need to appreciate Kissinger in his historical context. So when and when he joins the Nixon administration at the beginning of 1969, the Cold War was not going very well for the United States. We were in the awful quagmire of the Vietnam War, a war we eventually lost. The Soviet Union was beginning its decades long ascendancy of having, first, military parity with the United States, and then more military power with the United States. American credibility was weakened, our allies were starting to lose faith in us. And it seemed like the free world was losing. And so Nixon and Kissinger did not believe in the possibility of actually winning the Cold War. It later took, of course, President Ronald Reagan to come in with that vision. But they were looking for ways to stop the bleeding, if you will, to stop the losses to restore some sort of stability and equilibrium, or eventually, the term became detente in the Cold War, so that it would be a stalemate of sorts. Again, not an outcome that I over, overall favored, but. considering the alternatives of continuing to lose the Cold War and fall further behind, what they did, I think, was a classic move of realpolitik, of “let's get the best outcome we can among the bad set of available options.”

EICHER: Kissinger was often criticized for this. Some, particularly on the political left, even went so far as to accuse him of war crimes, calling him a war criminal. In light of that realpolitik, talk a bit about Kissinger’s human-rights record and how is that more broadly significant as it pertains to American diplomacy?

INBODEN: Yeah, this is getting where it's a complicated story. So I will certainly defend Kissinger against some of the worst charges of you know, a war criminal or enthusiast for genocide or some other awful things like that. But some of the criticisms do have more than a grain of truth. For example, when he was working on the big strategic opening to China with Richard Nixon in 1972, again, a diplomatic masterstroke that depended on partnership with Pakistan. But that also meant that Nixon and Kissinger, you know, quietly supported Pakistan's near genocide in East Pakistan during the war for what became independent Bangladesh and I, I can't excuse that. I do find that a really appalling part of his record. So the critics do have some legitimate concerns here, even if I do think they take the charges way, way too far.

REICHARD: The New York Times noted on Thursday that this is the end of an era for US-China relations. We now know that Kissinger secretly visited Beijing in 1971, and he would visit the country over 100 times. That last trip–as we noted a few minutes ago–came in July, just a few months before he turned 100!

So Will, what characterizes the “Kissinger era” of U.S.-China relations?

INBODEN: Yeah, very good question, Mary. So I would say it started off with a promising favorable step, which was absolutely warranted and the right thing to do at the time, again, of Nixon and Kissinger opening America's relationship with China, bringing China in as a partner against the greater enemy at the time, which was the Soviet Union and soviet communism. And this did eventually play a part in Reagan then coming to power and bringing about America's peaceful victory in the Cold War and defeating the Soviet Union. And so that part of US-China relations I think Nixon and Kissinger got right, and there was a great benefit to the United States and the overall free world. But in geopolitics, sometimes an initially good decision can contain the seeds of later challenges, and where I think Kissinger later erred was not recognizing that the Chinese Communist Party, once the Cold War ended, shifted to a posture of more antagonism towards the United States, of wanting to maintain its own monopoly and power and erode American influence in the world. He didn't realize that we needed to recalibrate and now realize that China had gone from being a temporary partner to a more significant adversary, as they are now.

EICHER: Will, one thing you have in common with Mr. Kissinger is your service on the National Security Council. During your time in that role, did you have a chance to form first-hand impressions of him?

INBODEN: Yes, so I had the chance, I would never became close to Dr. Kissinger, but certainly had a chance to meet with him a few times, both when I was serving at the White House to the National Security Council staff, and then, later in recent years, as a scholar. I'm even honored to be affiliated with the Henry Kissinger Center for Global Affairs at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. And he was someone who, whether I agreed with him or disagreed with him, I always found him interesting. I always found him insightful. I always found that he brought a deep historical consciousness and sensibility and of course, incomparable policy experience to any particular, you know, set of policy issues that we were wrestling with that I was trying to think through or that you know, the President was or my colleagues were as well. And so he's someone that you, you always, I think, did well to consult, even if ultimately you didn't follow the particular advice that he was he was going to give. There's a reason that every president from Kennedy on up to Biden at least wanted to hear what does Kissinger say. And that in some ways, is the ultimate compliment.

REICHARD: We are once again in dangerous times as far as foreign policy is concerned. Is there anything else you think should be remembered about Kissinger’s legacy as America moves forward without him?

INBODEN: Yeah, yes, Mary and I'm glad you bring it up, because as we know from recent discussions, and certainly the daily headlines, is the Middle East is aflame again, right? And Israel, of course, facing the existential threat of Hamas being sworn to its destruction, Iran being sworn to its destruction, and the United States trying to do our part to support Israel, but facing some crosscurrents there. And this is where I think one of Kissinger's more important, underappreciated legacies is how he substantially increased America's influence in the Middle East, going back to 1973 when the Yom Kippur War had broken out, and Israel's Arab enemies launched a surprise attack against it. Kissinger, perhaps more than anyone else in American government, ensured that the United States came to Israel's aid, provide Israel the military assistance that it needed to defend itself and ensure its survival. And I think that is very much a favorable part of his legacy. But now, once again, you know, the particular circumstances are different, but Israel is once again facing significant challenges to its very existence and is in need of American support. And I think it's in, certainly Israel's interest, but also America's interest, as Kissinger recognized 50 years ago to maintain a strong U.S.-Israel partnership and to support Israel during its time at peril.

REICHARD: William Inboden is a professor at the University of Florida and a regular contributor to World Opinions. Will, thanks for joining us!

INBODEN: Thank you, Mary. It's a pleasure to be with you as always.

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