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Lawless - Episode 5: Bad Blood

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WORLD Radio - Lawless - Episode 5: Bad Blood

After a bitter argument, Michael and the Schindlers find themselves on opposite sides of a family feud and the fight for Terri’s guardianship.


Audio sources and additional resources listed at the bottom of the transcript.

SOUND: MARINE ONE

LYNN VINCENT, HOST: In Waco, Texas, George W. Bush steps down out of Marine One, the presidential helicopter. He’s wearing a suit and tie, but he has none of the usual smiles for comments for onlookers and reporters.

Instead his manner is serious and businesslike. It’s March 20, 2005—Palm Sunday. Terri Schiavo has been without food and water for two days. Bush interrupted his vacation at his Crawford, Texas, ranch to fly back to Washington, D.C.. There, Congress is debating a bill.

TOM DELAY: We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being.

The American people are debating it, too.

INDEPENDENT CALLER: I totally missed the part in the constitution where Congress was to convene to get into personal matters like this.

Florida Governor Jeb Bush was the first of the famous brothers to get involved in the Schiavo case. Opponents say the Bushes are in cahoots with the religious right. That they’re bent on undermining the Constitution. The judge in Terri’s case, George Greer, certainly seems to think so.

JUDGE GEORGE GREER: I've said publicly and privately that the Bush brothers either didn't take civics or they slept through it.

The brothers themselves say the fight is over due process. That so far, Terri Schiavo has had less due process than a convicted killer.

President Bush boards the Air Force 1 and takes off to the east. He’s hoping to change that.

SOUND: AIR FORCE ONE TAKING OFF

LAWLESS THEME

From WORLD Radio, and the creative team that brings you The World and Everything in It: This is Lawless. I’m New York Times bestselling author and WORLD Magazine senior writer Lynn Vincent.

Lawless is a new true crime podcast that examines a frightening fact of American life: That not every crime is against the law. In America, the essential value of being human has eroded to the point that what once would have been prosecuted as a crime is now unexceptional. Even celebrated.

In Season 1 of Lawless, we’re investigating the Terri Schiavo story, a case that in 2005 shocked the world. This is Episode 5: Bad Blood.

THEME OUT

SOUND: FOOT STEPS. CAR KEYS JINGLING. DOOR OPENING.

Bobby Schindler is furious. It’s Valentine’s Day, twelve years before President Bush interrupted his vacation to jet back to D.C. At the house on Hermosita Street, Bobby grabs his car keys and heads out the door. He’s hell-bent on finding his brother-in-law, Michael Schiavo.

Michael has just had a screaming match with Terri’s father, Bob Schindler. The fight was over money. Terri’s mother Mary says Michael threw his textbooks against the wall.

Then the two men nearly came to blows—right there at Sabal Palms nursing home. Right next to Terri, who was sitting in her chair. Mary had to jump in between them.

Bobby hears about it that same day and he is livid.

BOBBY SCHINDLER: I was gonna go over to confront him and ask him what the heck was he doing? You've been saying all along, you're gonna do this and do that. And my parents believed you. We all believed you, now, you know, out of nowhere, you're going to tell us that, that you're not going to do anything to help, help our sister after you receive the money.

Bobby is already in the driveway when Mary runs after him, begging him not to confront Michael. But Bobby is young and headstrong. She can’t talk him down. Then Bob jumps in.

SCHINDLER: And my dad saw how emotional I was and knew that was a bad idea. So he came and grabbed me and said, you know, if you want to talk to Michael, fine. But not now. And I didn't go. I don't know what would have happened if  I had saw him as mad as I was.

Only three months before, Michael and the Schindlers had marched arm-in-arm into the courthouse. For two years prior to that, they’d worked side by side. There had been tension. But somehow, they’d worked it out.

Now, though, the relationship is shattered. And the meticulous care for Terri?…the manicures, the walks, the makeup? Here’s Fran Casler:

FRAN CASLER: We would go to the nursing homes and he would take take care of Terry like she was a little doll. He would have her made up, he would have her hair done. He would have outfits completely dressed. And then…then that all stopped.

More importantly, so does therapy. All that rehabilitative care the jury saw in that video during the malpractice trial? According to a former nursing assistant at Sabal Palms and others, Michael ordered that stopped too.

On July 16th, 1993, Bob Schindler writes a letter. Makes one last appeal to his son-in-law. He reminds Michael of his promise to use the malpractice award to, “enhance Terri’s medical and neurological care.”

He pleads with Michael to share information on Terri’s condition. Asks him even to consider giving Terri back to them so that he, Michael, can move on with his life. Bob ends his letter this way: “Are you ready to dedicate the rest of your life to Terri? We are! Let us know your feelings.”

For the Schindlers, what Michael did next seemed to make his feelings perfectly clear.

SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE: Lawless is made possible by listeners like you. Additional support comes from Samaritan Ministries, a Biblical solution to health care, connecting Christians across the nation who care for one another spiritually and financially when a medical need arises. More at samaritanministries.org/worldpodcast.

In the summer of 1993, Mary drives to Sabal Palms to visit Terri. Outside, it’s a trademark tropical day. Inside, she sits with Terri in the air-conditioned reception area near the entrance—Mary on a little round seat and Terri in a wheelchair.

MARY SCHINDLER: And we were talking to her...and this other nurse came up and said, Well, she looks pretty good...something like that. And I said, “Yeah, she looks great.”

Then the nurse said Terri had been—

SCHINDLER: …in the hospital. She was in the hospital. And I said, we didn't know that.

The nurse tells Mary that Terri has been suffering from a serious urinary tract infection. That she’d been on intravenous antibiotics for a couple days, then switched to oral antibiotics.

SCHINDLER: That's how we found out. She said, Yeah, she told us Yes. It's a good thing. She's on the antibiotics or she would have had, you know, sepsis.

Sepsis. That’s what happens when a person’s body turns on itself because of an infection that gets out of control. Left untreated, sepsis triggers a cascade of symptoms. Fever. Difficulty breathing. Low blood pressure. A runaway heart rate…and then death.

Terri gets UTIs every once in a while. Mary is relieved to know the nursing home had caught the infection. But it concerns her that Terri had been in the hospital without her knowing it.

SCHINDLER: All I remember is I went home. And I didn't say anything when I was there, because I never found out my information that much when I was there. I used to find it out more on the phone...

That’s because after the Valentine’s Day fight, Michael ordered Sabal Palms not to share any of Terri’s medical information with her parents.

SCHINDLER: There was one nurse that could talk to me on the phone. And when I got home, I called…

What the nurse says on the phone jolts Mary. Michael had ordered Sabal Palms staff not to treat Terri’s UTI. Not to give her antibiotics. Michael decided to let the infection turn into sepsis, which he was aware would likely end Terri’s life.

This isn’t just the nurse’s interpretation. And it isn’t Mary’s. That fall, Michael would say the same thing in a deposition. More on that in a moment.

Now, which month Michael ordered doctors not to treat Terri’s infection. That’s in dispute. Mary says June or July. Michael says August. But there’s no question that in this escalating family feud, the summer of 1993 was a hot one.

That July, Michael is hanging out in an orthodontist’s office. Not most people’s idea of a good time. But Michael is friends with the orthodontist—and the all-female office staff decides to do a little matchmaking.

The girls at the front desk tell Michael there’s a patient in the waiting room he should meet: A brunette, in her late 20s. Jodi Centonze. Michael writes about that first meeting in his 2005 book, Terri: The Truth. He says that when he first sees Jodi, he tries not to stare.

“She had long, beautiful legs,” he writes. “I’m thinking, gorgeous girl.”

Michael follows Jodi back to the treatment room. The little flock of dental matchmakers giggles as they pass. Michael and Jodi start chatting…and keep chatting, even as the staff begins to work on her teeth.

Later, Michael walks Jodi to her car. Asks her if she’d like to go to dinner. She looks at him and says three simple words: “I…don’t…date.” But Michael Schiavo isn’t a man who gives up easily.

A few weeks later, Michael asked Jodi out again. They went to lunch and hit it off. The first time they went on a real date, he followed up with a dozen red roses.

Michael’s relationship with Jodi is his second romantic relationship since Terri’s February 1990 injury. In fact, it’s his second within the previous 18 months. Michael met Jodi in July 1993. I’d like to ask Jodi about those days...about that summer.

VOICE MAIL: Hi this is Lynn Vincent. I’m calling for Jodi Centonze…Please give me a call back. It’s regarding a podcast I’m doing on the Terri Schiavo case. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

I had to leave a message. So far, she hasn’t called me back. There’s still time.

In late summer 1993, Bob and Mary Schindler decide to file suit against their son-in-law. Their goal: to remove him as Terri’s guardian. The Schindlers had been upset over their falling out with Michael. But the speed with which he changed his plans for Terri’s future was like whiplash.

Now, the Schindlers need a lawyer. They turn to Jim Sheehan. With my co-writer Anna Johanson Brown, I met Sheehan in May 2021 on a lush, green street in the historic Old Northeast neighborhood of St. Petersburg.

MULTIPLE VOICES: Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming by. My pleasure.

SOUND: SETTING UP FOR INTERVIEW

Our interview takes place in the tiny living room of a nearby Airbnb. Sheehan is slim and tan. White-haired and confident. He looks like Florida. Blue polo shirt, seersucker shorts, and boat shoes. These days, he’s a professor of law at Stetson University.

He is also a careful man. He tells me right up front that he’ll share only what he remembers about his own involvement in the Schiavo guardianship case. Beyond that, he won’t speculate.

Sheehan first learned of the Schindlers from their friend Fran Casler in late summer, 1993.

JIM SHEEHAN: I was an attorney practicing in downtown St. Petersburg as a sole practitioner. And Fran was my secretary…She just asked me if I could help them.

Fran told Sheehan about Michael’s order to withhold antibiotics. And about the Schindlers’ outrage. But Sheehan doesn’t remember that as his primary reason for accepting the case. For Jim Sheehan, the whole conflict boiled down to one thing:

SHEEHAN: Michael had a conflict of interest. He was moving on with his life. And he...had this money that was supposed to be used to take care of Terri….If something happened to her, that money would be his. It wouldn't be spent on her well being, which to me, was just a clear conflict of interest.

But Michael argues if he had a conflict of interest, the Schindlers did, too. He says his attorney, Steve Nilsson, sent Bob and Mary a letter, suggesting that the court appoint an independent guardian for Terri. That way, the Schindlers could share decision-making authority with Michael. According to Michael, the Schindlers never replied to that offer. Which confirmed Michael’s view that Bob was only in it for Terri’s money.

November 19th, 1993. Jim Sheehan is driving over to Oakbrook Plaza in Clearwater. To the law office of Attorney Steven Nilsson. Sheehan is about to depose Michael Schiavo.

It’s a gorgeous Florida day.

WEATHER REPORT: ...at Lakeland 77 St. Petersburg Clearwater 79 Tampa 81 . News weather together top and bottom of every hour…

Those warm temperatures would soon seem mild compared to the heat about to be generated in Nilsson’s office. For Sheehan, the question at the center of Schindler vs. Schiavo—version 1—was this: Which party, Michael or the Schindlers, would be the best guardians for Terri?

SHEEHAN: That was the way I was going to present it. As simply, judge, you should transfer guardianship, from Michael who's moving on with his life to Bob and Mary, because it's their daughter. It's their life to take care of their daughter, whatever that is.

Remember, this guardianship action occurred years before the feeding tube case that got so much public attention. That wasn’t even a thing yet. But the guardianship fight itself would trigger indignance—even derision—that lasted long after Terri’s death. Terri needed a guardian because she was incapacitated. But, as Michael’s first attorney Dan Grieco pointed out, that role doesn’t automatically fall to the spouse in the State of Florida and in many other jurisdictions.

Still, a lot of people were outraged that Terri’s parents thought they could somehow displace her husband as Terri’s guardian. Here are Michael Hobbes and Sara Marshall, hosts of the podcast, You’re Wrong About, still whinging about it in 2019. The Schindlers—

MICHEAL HOBBES: ….have no standing under the law to do this, because the entire law is set up, that the surrogacy of the person switches from the parents to the spouse when they get married. This is the entire basis of law.

SARA MARSHALL: Right, or like you can't invalidate heteronormativity. I'm sorry.

HOBBES: And so essentially, they're, they're arguing that they have some sort of right to supersede her spouse. There is no legal basis for that whatsoever.

Sorry, Hobbes and Marshall. You’re wrong about that, so to speak.

No, under Florida’s guardianship statute—then and now—the court may appoint any person who is what the law calls “fit and proper and qualified.” The law—and the courts—give preference to people related by blood or marriage.

That means the Schindlers had just as much right to become Terri’s guardians as Michael did.

SOUND: CAR ARRIVING

Sheehan pulls into Oakbrook Plaza, parks, and heads inside. It’s early afternoon by the time he sits down with Michael and his attorney, Steve Nilsson.

Bob Schindler is in the room. Also, a court reporter. I have the transcript she prepared. The deposition makes extremely interesting reading. We’ve posted the whole thing for you at LawlessPodcast.com, in the notes for this episode.

Even though the transcript is almost 20 years old, you can almost hear the room crackling with static. That’s because, when Sheehan begins questioning Michael, Nilsson objects to everything.

Over the next two hours and twenty minutes, he will object more than fifty times. About a third of the way in, Sheehan tells him, “We can do this all day.”

Sheehan first asks Michael about his romantic relationships with Cyndi and Jodi, both of which Michael confirms. Then Sheehan turns to medical questions. He asks whether Michael had recently changed any instructions to the Sabal Palms staff with regard to Terri’s care.

As I say, the only record here is by a legal transcriptionist, so no audio. But the following is word-for-word.

MICHAEL SHIAVO (VOICED): After speaking with my doctor I gave an order not to treat a bladder infection Terry had. I talked to him about what he felt Terry's future was and he told me that Terry is basically going to be like this for the rest of her life …

What would the doctor say would happen if Terri was not treated with antibiotics?

SHIAVO (VOICED): That sometimes urinary tract infections will turn to sepsis, an infection throughout the body…and the patient would pass on.

Michael names the doctor he says suggested not treating Terri’s next infection, which eventually would turn to sepsis and take her life. It was a respected internist.

But that would seem to violate Florida law if Sabal Palms were not to treat Terri for something that was not life threatening. Terri’s UTI had nothing to do with her disability, which was brain damage. Allowing an infection to rage out of control wouldn’t have been “letting Terri die.” It would have been actively killing her.

So here’s my question: would that doctor really have counseled Michael to act in a way that may violate the law? Sadly, I can’t ask him. When I called his home, his wife told me he passed away five years ago.

Let’s go back to the deposition.

Michael at first claimed it was the internist who suggested inducing sepsis—that the conversation took place in July 1993. Later in the deposition, though, Michael said no doctor made the sepsis suggestion prior to November 18, 1993. When Michael said that, Nilsson stepped in with a long series of objections.

Let me just boil them down. Nilsson said Sheehan's questions were "unfair and improper." that Michael couldn't hold all Sheehan's questions in his mind at the same time. Sheehan asked Michael again who advised him not to treat Terri's infection. Michael then returned to his previous answer: That it was the internist …

Back in July.

Now Sheehan strings it all together, connecting intentions with outcome. Sheehan wants to know, “So when you made the decision not to treat Terry's bladder infection you, in effect, were making a decision to allow her to pass on?”

SHIAVO (VOICED): I was making a decision on what Terry would want.

There it is. The question would form the burning center of the very public feud that would consume America. “What did Terri Schiavo want?”

Back in 1993, Sheehan asks Michael a simple question: how does he know what Terri wants?

SHIAVO (VOICED): She was my wife. I lived with her. We shared things. We shared a bed. We shared our thoughts.

Michael then gives Sheehan an example. It’s a story about a train ride he and Terri took in late 1985 or 1986. At the time, Terri’s grandmother was dying and, according to Michael, she was in a reflective mood. She started talking about an uncle of hers. He’d lost his wife and child in a tragic accident…he was grieving.

SHIAVO (VOICED): “I believe he went out one night, had a few drinks and wrapped his car around a telephone pole. And her uncle was in a coma for awhile and emerged a man that she never knew anymore. He was disabled. He can't walk. He can't do things for himself. His kids are his Power of Attorney now. We got into a discussion about that and she said to me, I would never want to live like that. I would just want to die.

WEDDING VIDEO: RECEPTION AUDIO

You’ve already met the man Michael says prompted that conversation. His name is Uncle Fred.  Let’s rewind to Episode 3, when we recounted Terri and Michael’s wedding. I mentioned a handsome older man. I mentioned his navy suit. That he walked with a slight limp and a cane.

I asked Uncle Fred’s daughter, Kathy Brown, about her dad’s accident. At the time, she was a nurse. Kathy and her sister used cutting-edge therapies to pull their dad out of his coma—it took a week. Within a month, they were taking him out to dinner at fancy restaurants. That was 1980.

KATHY BROWN: He was responsive, he started to talk again. And we got to the table. We pushed him up against the table. And he pulled his napkin, put it on his lap, and I started to cry. That’s when I knew he was back.

Michael says Terri told him the story about Uncle Fred’s profound and continuing disability in late 1985 or early 1986. But there he is in that 1984 wedding video…strolling through the receiving line, smiling and chatting, kissing Terri on the cheek…shaking Michael’s hand.

Why is this important? Because the Uncle Fred story would become the centerpiece—in fact, the only piece—of Michael Schiavo’s first official attempt to have Terri’s feeding tube removed…by claiming she would not have wanted to live. You’ll hear a lot more from Kathy Brown in Episode 6.

Back in Nilsson’s office, Jim Sheehan asks Michael whether, if Terri got another infection, he’d instruct doctors not to treat her again. He says no. Why? Sheehan asks.

SHIAVO (VOICED): Evidently there’s a law out there that says I can’t do it.

But what about this time, Sheehan asks. When Michael made the decision that would likely have ended Terri’s life, did he think he had any obligation to let her parents know?

SHIAVO (VOICED): I probably would have let them know sooner or later.

AMBI: COURTHOUSE

Jim Sheehan filed the Schindlers’ guardianship case in the Circuit Court of the Sixth Judicial District. In February 1994, Circuit Court Judge Thomas Penick, Jr., appoints a guardian ad litem for Terri. That’s different from a regular guardian.

JAY WOLFSON: Guardian Ad Litem is a position that I believe every state in this country….

That’s attorney Jay Wolfson. He would become Terri’s guardian ad litem in the feeding tube case.

WOLFSON: When there's a party in an action that the state has determined is legally incapacitated. And they do not have their own representation. And there are other parties, such as family members who are disputing issues associated with that person's rights. score of the state itself has a concern about the exercise of that person's rights, then a guardian ad litem may be appointed by the courts.

The feeding tube case wouldn’t be filed for another five years. In the 1993 case, Terri’s guardian ad litem is a man named John Pecarek. He’s is an imposing man. Six-foot-three. And a half. Reminds people of Gregory Peck.

Pecarek’s job is to investigate allegations against Michael Schiavo and make a determination: Was Michael a fit guardian for his wife? Pecarek was the investigator who conducted interviews with 13 members of the Sabal Palms nursing home staff. The one who learned that Michael yelled and screamed. Intimidated the staff. That his treatment of nurses caused them to break down in tears.

Pecareck was appointed on February 23, 1994. One week later, he was ready to deliver his report.

SHEEHAN: We were prepared for an evidentiary hearing. The judge called the guardian ad litem up...He basically read his report...and his opinion was that Michael should remain as guardian.

Pecarek says Michael was a nursing home administrator’s worst nightmare. Those are the actual words in his report. But, Pecarek says, Michael’s poor treatment of Terri’s nurses actually got her more attention than other residents. He thinks it’s actually a good thing.

As soon as Pecarek finished delivering his report, Judge Penick said...

SHEEHAN: That's it. I'm denying the petition.

And the judge walks out. That meant the Schindlers had lost. Michael would remain Terri’s guardian. Sheehan was shocked.

SHEEHAN: Neither attorney got to cross examine him. Both of us wanted to.

Sheehan wanted to ask Pecarek about what seemed to him to be Michael’s clear conflicts of interest. And, Sheehan wanted to know, could it really be said that Michael was the best person to care for Terri when he had already tried once to end her life?

To Sheehan, the worst thing was that, Judge Penick dismissed the Schindlers’ case “with prejudice.” That meant the Schindlers could never again challenge Michael’s guardianship in court.

When I talk to her now, Mary Schindler has a lot of regrets about that time.

MARY SCHINDLER: It was just things was happening so fast. To be thrown in front of all this stuff, you know, in like this, that I've just wasn't that type of person. Came from a little town. And I just wasn't used to all this stuff and all the stuff they were talking about all that legal stuff. I didn't want any part of it.

She says they were just an ordinary family. They didn’t know the ins and outs of the legal system. They didn’t have the cash to hire new lawyers, pursue other legal options.

Plus they were optimistic. The Schindlders believed that, at the end of the day, justice would prevail. How could anyone knowingly hurt their little girl?

By the spring of 1994, Michael and Jodi have been dating for about ten months. It’s been on again, off again. But every time they start to get really close, Michael says, he feels conflicted…part of him still remembering Terri. He’d break things off, then a month later, he’d call her “just to talk” …and then it would grow into something more.

But in April of 1994, they break up again. This time it’s Jodi who ends things. Michael takes a call from another woman right in front of her. Furious, she tells him he’s ripped her heart out for the last time. She walks out…And they don’t speak for a very long time.

That same month, Michael moves Terri out of Sabal Palm and into a different nursing home: Palm Garden.

CARLA SAUER-IYER: When I first came on board, they had her at the front of the nursing station when visitors would enter.

That’s registered nurse, Carla Sauer-Iyer.

SAUER-IYER: She would just smile. She would… actually react. She reacted to her environment, she reacted to people, she reacted to her name. After a while visitors that are regular to come in to see their loved ones would know Terry and hi Terry. And she would giggle. She would just light up.

On Michael’s orders, Terri receives no therapy at Palm Garden…except for what the nurses manage to slip in behind his back.

SAUER-IYER: Michael didn't want range of motion or any PT physical therapy, or speech therapy, occupational therapy.

When Carla was hired at Palm Garden, she received a sober warning: Cross Michael Schiavo and you will be fired. She crossed him anyway.

SAUER-IYER: We actually put, you know, like washcloths in her hands were contracted, and underneath her knees and put her booties on her feet. So she wouldn't get bed sores…And he said that was therapy. Take it out.

I went to visit Carla in the strawberry capital of the world—Plant City, Florida. She’s blonde and colorful—pink lipstick and turquoise eyeliner.

We conduct our interview in a guest house Carla and her husband have on their property. Carla has decorated it with Disney World castoffs—items she picked up for a few dollars apiece during the equivalent of theme park garage sales. Vera Bradley bookcases. An entire rack of unopened DVDs.

Carla cared for Terri at Palm Garden for about 18 months, between 1995 to 1996. She’s actually a little like Terri. A heart for the weak and injured.

Terri rescued one of her own cats, Shanna, as an injured kitten. When I visit, Carla is in the process of rescuing a kitten herself, a tabby, maybe eight or 10 weeks old. The kitten looks…well…

SAUER-IYER: I know she looks awful. She, she was arrived at my door. So I don't know if she was dropped, or she wandered over. Red, bulging, bleeding eyes. Her eyes but this eye was, was really out of the socket. So I gently put it kind of in, put a glove on and kind of pushed it back in. Put some liquid antibiotics, like amoxicillin. The veterinarian wanted either to euthanize her or just take both eyeballs out saying she's blind.

LYNN: So what was your reaction when the vet said euthanize her?

SAUER-IYER: Oh, absolutely not. I don't agree with euthanasia, whatever. You can save and, you know, just work with the with a patient or an animal in this case, and give a lot of TLC. Everybody can have an eye infection. Do we, do we euthanize those people?

Michael and Jodi’s breakup in April 1994 lasts longer than the others. They don’t speak for months...but finally, Michael calls Jodi “just to talk” and soon they’re back together. That October, the two of them are outside doing yard work at Jodi’s house. Digging in the dirt, laying fresh sod out front.

That’s when Michael asks a big question: He wants to know if Jodi will marry him...someday. Jodi doesn’t remember exactly what she said. Something like, “Whatever.”

She doesn’t really believe him…until Michael reaches into his pocket and pulls out a ring.

Next time on Lawless

RICHARD PEARSE: And the Terry that I saw, laid in the bed. Her eyes were open. Some people said, you know, her eyes were expressive. I never found that to be true. She just had a vacant glare. She was in by that time, a persistent vegetative state.

Lawless is a production of WORLD Radio. Our executive producer is Paul Butler. Our production assistant is Lillian Hamman. Music by Will Shehan. Audio support from Creative Genius Productions. Lawless is reported and written by Anna Johansen Brown, Bonnie Pritchett, and me, Lynn Vincent. For a list of additional audio sources in this episode, visit LawlessPodcast.com. Thank you for joining us.

AUDIO SOURCES:
(in order of appearance)

Marine One helicopter : WOW: The BEST Marine One Landing You May Ever See Youtube video by LIVENow from FOX

Air Force One : Air Force One - Close Up Takeoff + Taxi (VC-25) Youtube video by Airborne Cinematics

Tom Delay: Terri Schiavo Case [3/19/05] CSPAN video

Independent caller : Open Phones: Terri Schiavo [3/20/05] CSPAN video

Greer : The Terri Schiavo Case with Judge Greer Youtube video by St. Petersburg College

Radio weather report: Tampa WFLA AM

Hobbes and Marshall: “Terri Schiavo” episode ofYou’re Wrong About… Podcast by Michael Hobbes and Sarah Marshall

Jay Wolfson : “Head, Heart, and Hope: The Complex Challenges of Decision-Making at End of Life [1/10/11]” Episode by University at Buffalo School of Social Work

Additional Resources:

M Schiavo Sheehan Depo Highlighted 111993 
DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO, November 19, 1993.
Robert and Mary Schindler, Petitioners, vs. Michael Schiavo as Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo, Respondent. Case No. 90-2908-GD


WORLD Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of WORLD Radio programming is the audio record.

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