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Confronting today’s lies: A conversation with Rosaria Butterfield


WORLD Radio - Confronting today’s lies: A conversation with Rosaria Butterfield

Her new book, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age, offers a challenging call to love God’s truth in creation more deeply and boldly

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MYRNA BROWN, HOST: Welcome to a special weekend interview from The World and Everything in It.

NICK EICHER, HOST: This week we invited author Rosaria Butterfield to join us on Culture Friday, but our conversation went much longer than we’d budgeted, and certainly longer than we had a time slot for.

BROWN: But we both had long admired her writing, her courage, and her life story and our interview this week was the first time we got to meet her — so we just kept rolling tape. And today, we’ll let you hear the longer interview we didn’t have room for on our weekday program.

EICHER: Now, if you don’t know Rosaria Butterfield, her PhD is from The Ohio State University. She’s an author, pastor’s wife, homeschool mom, and former professor of English and women’s studies at Syracuse University.

BROWN: In addition to the book we’ll talk about today, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age, Rosaria Butterfield is author of The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert; Openness Unhindered; and The Gospel Comes with a House Key.

EICHER: Let’s begin by saying “good morning, Rosaria!”

ROSARIA BUTTERFIELD: Good morning, Nick and Myrna. I'm so glad to be here with you today.

BROWN:Well, I want to start. Of the five lies of our anti Christian age, and I'm going to just list them: Homosexuality is normal. Being a spiritual person is kinder than being a biblical Christian. Feminism is good for the world and the church. Transgenderism is normal. Modesty is an outdated burden that serves male dominance and holds women back. So all of those - destructive. I want to know from you, which one do you think is causing the most havoc in the culture and in families?

BUTTERFIELD: One of the things you need to know about The Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age is they all rely upon a similar paradigm. And I would say that that paradigm can be broken down into basically four different chunks of ideas. The first is that we have failed to realize that the seeds of the gospel are in the garden. That you cannot unhinge the Old Testament from the New Testament and still be a Christian.

The second reason is that we don't seem to know what time it is. And you know, partying like it's 1999 just makes us look stupid and dysfunctional. So what does it mean to be a post-Obergefell world? What does it mean to be a post-Bostock world? What does it mean to send your kids to government school, when the Biden administration believes that the 14th Amendment supports the castration of your 14 year old son and includes an anti-bullying legislation mandated in all federal government schools that promote transgenderism? Well, know what time it is, Christian.

The third reason is, we don't really love our enemies. We just don't. We're cowards. We're traitors. We're hirelings. We need to learn how to love our enemies, and stop pretending that our enemies are our friends. And we do this when we act that common grace is enough. We're so glad that our neighbors who identify as lesbian water their lawn and walk their dogs. We think that's enough. And that means that we're cowards and traitors.

And then finally, all of this really does rest on an error that feminism has entered into this paradigm that I would say many members of the Church believe. And that's this idea that there is a distinction between sex and gender. And that in order to be a decent person, you need to maintain the sex/gender distinction. And that has really run havoc.

Because, you know, the sex/gender distinction from a feminist perspective would say, “Now look, you know I'm a woman, but I'm really smart. I'm really articulate. I want to be really educated, I have callings that are going to take me away from my creational calling, and that's okay. And that should be reified. And that should be valued, because there's an absolute distinction between sex and gender.” And then transgenderism has simply taken that, quite frankly, to its logical conclusion. To where we no longer even believe that sex is true or valid. And all we have is gender. So all of the five lies rely on all of those paradigms. And all of those paradigms are shot through all of the five lies.

EICHER: I want to ask you about your recent turning away, your recent repentance from using transgender pronouns, Rosaria. You wrote an article that was widely circulated, and you touch on it in the intro to the book. What motivated you to accept the use of preferred pronouns in the first place? Was it rightly motivated in your mind and just wrong? Or were you wrongly motivated from the beginning?

BUTTERFIELD: Well, I'm a dirty, rotten sinner. So everything is rightly motivated in my mind. And that is really a big problem, you know, because I can convince myself that my feelings are indeed sanctified because I feel them. Let me tell you that I spent way too many years as a gay rights activist to trust my feelings on anything short of how I like to take my coffee. But I will say this: one of the efforts in the gay rights movement is you humanize sin or to empathize with the reasons that people sin, what that effect does is it yields the moral language to the left, which means we no longer have a biblical moral language to call people to belief, repentance, and victory over sin. Now, absolutely, we need to see other sinners, including ourselves, as image bearers of a holy God. Is that image of God in them? Yes. Is it marred? Yes. Is it marred in us? Yes. But yes, in an effort to humanize the trans experience, I used transgender pronouns. And I did that for a really long time. And the Lord convicted me that that was a sin.

EICHER: But you did it as a Christian, not as a non-Christian propagandist. But as a Christian, you did it. And that's why I asked the question that way.

BUTTERFIELD: Right. Well, my reasons, and I don't think these are good reasons, but I'll tell you what my reasons were. My reasons were, most of the people that I know from the transgender community have a number of comorbidities and mental health instabilities, and there is absolutely no reason to exacerbate someone's mental health crisis by having a fight over something that you don't think is a big deal. And you might say that before Obergefell, this was all just a matter of vocabulary. You know, you call me Rosie. Call me Rosaria. What's the difference? It's vocabulary. But after the three exchanges in Romans one become codified by civil law, we are not dealing with vocabulary. We're dealing with etiology.

So for a Christian to use transgender pronouns in this particular climate is simply an act of carrying water for the other team. But more than that. Okay, then you might say, “Well, Rosaria, why didn't you just course correct? Because, you know, people learn stuff.” But Thomas Watson in his wonderful book, The Doctrine of Repentance, actually starts out by explaining what counterfeit repentance is. And you know what counterfeit repentance is? It’s course correcting. We want God to bless the church. And we want God to give victory over sin, to people trapped in homosexuality and transgenderism. Those are awful ways to live. But if I'm Achan in the camp, God's not going to bless what I say or do at all. So I had to just go full face plant and repent. Which, you know, really people, should it be that shocking that Christians repent of their sins?

I mean, quite frankly, what business do we have calling unbelievers to repent of their sins, if we're not willing to repent of ours? So the fact that that article became such a big deal was, and I'm not on social media, so I never know things are a big deal until like, somebody says, “Could we translate this into Korean?” I'm like, “Whoa, wait a second. I think this is a big deal, now.” So yeah, I think we should see more of this. Don't you?

EICHER: Sure. And forgive me if I read this wrong. But, again, going back to the intro to the book, you cited those Supreme Court decisions—Obergefell, Bostock—advancing gay rights as sort of turning you away from pronoun hospitality. But wouldn't it always be wrong, regardless of a Supreme Court decision? I'm just trying to get the distinction.

BUTTERFIELD: Yes! You are absolutely right. And I think what I tried to say, I don't know that you were reading it wrong, because maybe I was writing it wrong. But what I was trying to say is that sometimes the pressure of the world forces you to see something in a light you hadn't seen before. So it was always true that that was a violation of the ninth commandment. And it was always wrong. And it was always harmful to my friends in the transgender community. Because what we have seen today is simply true, that there is a line that starts with social transitioning. Social transitioning is the using of false pronouns, and the dressing and clothes and that kind of thing. Choosing a false name. Social transitioning leads to cross sex hormones, which leads to surgery, which leads to medically destroyed lives.

And as someone who now speaks at school boards, and before the legislature about these things, I will tell you, it's crucial that we go and we speak as Christians. And that we hold out hope to this community. And here's the simple reason: it's not enough to just chuck in detransitioners. Put them before the limelight. Because you know, the same mental health complexities that caused a person to want to mutilate their bodies, it doesn't go away because they do.

But the other is that we're Christians. We don't throw people away. We don't hold up pictures of 14 year olds who have castrated themselves and their foolish parents as examples of what not to do. Yes, these are examples of what not to do, but these are human beings who need the gospel. And in the Gospel, if you repent and believe, you cannot mock God in heaven and in the New Jerusalem, you will be the man that you were meant to be, you will be the woman that you were meant to be. Your resurrected body will have no trace that you tried to mock God. There is no group more needy of the gospel, the real gospel—not the Side B, Gay Christian, Preston Sprinkle, “Let's-humanize-the-trans-experience.” That is just truly condemning them to a life of torment and potentially an eternity in hell. We preach a gospel of change, of liberty, and of victory. If not realized now, then certainly fully realized in the New Jerusalem.

BROWN: Let me jump in here, you, you talked about in your book, of course, the five lies, but you also talk about the three reasons, Rosaria, that the world is in chaos, and the church is divided. And we don't have time to talk about all three, I'd like to focus on just one. And and you've kind of talked about this already, when you talk about failing about our enemies: Failing to love our enemies, instead, we pretend that they're our friends. Can you talk a little bit more about standing, avoiding standing in the shoes of the sinner?

BUTTERFIELD: Yeah, yeah, well, two things to think about here. And if you're me, I can't help but to think about this very personally. Because my own conversion was, in many ways, galvanized at this moment when I was in Ken Smith's living room with a bunch of other people. And I was the lesbian activist at the university. And we had a nice dinner and everybody's talking and you know, they very much loved me and sat me at their table and told me the truth. We're singing Psalm 23. And when we get to the line that I'm dining in the presence of my foes, I started to really nurse a little wound, like, oh, yeah, I am dining in the presence of my foes. It's, it's kind of amazing. This Bible recognizes how I as the lesbian activist at the table feels. Here I am. They don't like gay rights. They don't support me. They don't love me and, and you know, that was the first moment I think that the Holy Spirit really did convict me of a sin. And I realized that I the English professor at the table was reading the book wrong. Right. I was reading it from the wrong point of view. I was not dining in the presence of my foes I was the foe. I was the enemy. And actually realizing that not only was their enemy, but I was Christ's enemy that was highly instrumental in coming to the Lord Jesus Christ. 

But the other issue that we have to deal with is we live in a world that overvalues empathy and undervalue sympathy. And empathy means standing in somebody's shoes. And sympathy means standing outside of the problem and trying to fix the problem, recognizing it's a problem. Well, we are told, and this is part of the dignitary harm clause of the Obergefell decision that makes it almost illegal to not believe this, right? We're told that if somebody comes out as gay or lesbian, or pick any of the 78 gender pronouns, that you cannot accept that person without approving of them, which was the very beginning of where Ken Smith started with me. “Rosaria I accept you as a lesbian? I just don't approve.” Well, today, we're told, “No, no, no. You need to affirm. Transgenderism is perfectly normal for some people. Let them cut off their testicles. Just give them a sticker and a parade. That’ll make it all better.” And you know, people who believe that are called barbarians. So there are times to empathize with somebody to stand in my shoes. But if I am stuck in a delusion of self harm and danger, or other harm and danger, please don't stand in my shoes. Please stand on dry ground and throw me a rope. And that's what the gospel is.

BROWN: I'm glad you mentioned, I'm glad you mentioned sitting at the table. And Psalm 23. And I, I have heard you give a speech and then break into song and sing that. And I loved it. And I'll just say, I don't think anybody would object to hear you singing a stanza. I'm just saying, you know, but yeah, I mean that. But you know, talk about how God uses that gift, that gift in you as you're sharing what he's done, what he's doing in your life.

BUTTERFIELD: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So first of all, we are Psalm singers. And so it's almost hard for me to actually say the Psalms without singing them. So I have a little Mary Poppins in me, and I break out into singing. I do that. I'm a teacher, also. My students are used to me doing this. But the other thing I really want you to see, and especially when I'm giving a lecture. So I am not a preacher chick wanna be. I don't exposit a text. My husband is a pastor. I never went to seminary. I rely upon him all the time for things. Part of why I do break out into song is because I want you to see the gospel is beautiful. And we will be singing psalms. And I mean, I don't know exactly, you know, we won't be seeing them in the Western tradition in which I have been taught them. But we will be singing God's Word in heaven. This is our rehearsal for heaven. And so, I like to do that. I like to break out in song. You know, it's also very vulnerable, I'll tell you, when you're standing in front of thousands of people. And usually there's been some kind of worship band before I go up. And so there's been lots of instruments, and lots of activity, and lots of plugging in this, and plugging in that. And then you just hear this, (you know, I mean, I'm 61 years old,) you hear this grandma getting up there and sing a new a psalm. And it's pretty vulnerable, like, my voice isn't perfect. But the Lord takes our filthy rags, and he uses them to build this thing called the church which he loves and will be standing when nothing else is. Right? So probably by the end of this conversation, Myrna, I will break out in psalm singing. And so that's why I think it's also really funny when I get criticisms from more, you know, some of the conservatives out there. You know, I get hated by both liberals and conservatives. I like to keep equal opportunity hatred out there going. But when they say things like, there's one man in particular, who every time I do anything will repost it on social media and say, “Behold, the RPCNA's favorite lady preacher!” And then usually somebody else will comment, “She told a story, and she sang a psalm. I hope this isn't what the preaching is like in your denomination, buddy.” So, there you go.

EICHER: So you have in the afterword to your book, I'm kind of navigating around here, you laid out a series of questions and answers, largely dealing with very practical situations, involving prodigals who have believed these lies that are detailed in the book. And you give advice on how to handle these prodigals. There are seven, if I counted right, seven of these Q and As. Could you pick one that may apply most broadly to someone who may be listening?

BUTTERFIELD: You know, so I wrote the book a while ago, and I will tell you that these Q and As were just simply questions that people were writing to my website at the time. So I'm not sure really, if there's one you want to pull out, I can tell you the thing that people are asking me the most today, but I'm not sure if it's, if it's in the book. The one that's really raging today has to do with transgenderism. And has to do with I have a child who has come out as trans and the lesbian therapist says, “Would I rather have a dead daughter or a living son? What do I do?” And so that's the current one. I don't even know. Is that one even in the book?

EICHER: It's not. But we can consider it an afterward to the afterward. Why don't you do that one? And then I was going to ask you about another one. 

BUTTERFIELD: Okay. Yeah. What I say to people, first of all, the Bible is very clear. And, and God is not, let's be clear about who the Lord God is, who the Father of heaven and earth is. He is not some crazy engineer who builds a bridge to nowhere, right? He made us male and female for creational purposes. And our image bearing is attached to that. So what I always remind people is, to grow in the image of God, is we need to grow in the knowledge, the righteousness, and the holiness of the Lord Jesus Christ. To grow in our transgenderism or our homosexuality, that simply means you're growing in the world, the flesh, and the devil. That's not where you want to go. 

But because we don't need to take a six month moratorium in spite of what some mega parachurch ministries are telling me these days to talk about these very controversial things. Because you know what, moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas, and people trapped in these sins, they need help right now. And the Bible actually helps us right now. So the first thing you need to do is you need to unplug your child from whatever is ailing her. So if that child is in government schools, you pluck that child out. And you figure it out. And if you can't figure it out, come talk to me and I'll help you figure it out. But you need to figure it out. Because right now, there is a federal mandate that mandates an anti bullying clause that requires transgender ideology, and you can't exempt your child from it. And you need to see this clearly. I want you to picture this. I am nagging right now. I'm the nagging grandmother. When I was a gay rights activist, we talked tirelessly about leaving consenting adults alone. We wanted allies to support us in that. You have not heard that quaint language in 30 years. And the reason is because the allies of the gay rights generation from which I emerged are now the groomers of the trans child rights generation today. There is no such thing as a trans child. Christopher Ruffo has written extensively about this. That is a totem, a pagan symbol of an evil generation. And so you must provide biblical counseling. You must also realize something. That even the APA, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychological Association, not something legitimate Christians should be, you know, promoting on The World and Everything in It. Even they say that in 73% of the time, that child is going to be fine if natal puberty is allowed to go functionally through. So get counseling, unplug from the demon, and stay very close to the means of grace.

EICHER: So here is one from the book. “My son, (this is question number five, Q&A Number five,) my son is willing to come home for Thanksgiving, but only if he and his boyfriend can stay at our home. What should I do?” How do you answer that one?

BUTTERFIELD: Well, the one is: Is your home big enough to accommodate two guests in two separate spaces? And even if it isn't big enough, is there a couch that your son can sleep on and a guest room that his friend can sleep on? I mean, I think that Thanksgiving is a wonderful time to gather with family. And also I would say it is also an ideal time to stay connected to family without becoming indoctrinated by them. So if you can accommodate two people then accommodate two people in separate places. Another option is if you have the means to provide a hotel room for your son's friend and your son stays at home, do that. Provide options. But no, I don't think that you are in a place, again, where as a Christian, you want to provide the appearance that you are supporting, condoning, and affirming that which you don't. And I'd like to just restate something that someone I am so blessed to count as a dear friend, Laura Smalts, her maiden name is Perry, and she wrote a book called From Transgender to Transformed. And in it she talks about how the years that she lived as Luke her parents, you know, they loved her, they prayed for her, they stayed as connected as they could. But they never used her pronouns. They never used her fake name. And then when she came to Christ, and returned to her parents, people said to her, “Why didn't you find a more progressive church? Why didn't you find a church where you could build a bridge and be missional?” And da-da-da-da And she said, “Well, why would I go to people who lied to me? I don't want to go to the liars. I want to go to the people who never lied to me. My parents never lied to me.” What a witness that is. That's the witness that you want, as well.

BROWN: If I can just push back just a little, because my husband and I have this conversation. So if, if your son and his partner are coming to your house as a couple, and you allow them to come in as a couple, are you not accepting? You know, their relationship? helped me understand that.

BUTTERFIELD: Myrna, what I would say is, if you and your husband have in a position on this, that's different than me, by all means, do what you need to do in your home. Or another way to say it is don't listen to me. You know, listen to your pastor and your elders. Well, that is one of those, it depends. Most of the couples I know who identify as gay, are going to come to your home for Thanksgiving and do the very same things you're doing. Probably eat too much. Walk the dogs. Maybe watch football. It's not a wedding. You're not actually you know, reifying the wedding. We have so many people at our house for Thanksgiving, the likelihood that these two folks would even get a chance to sit in chairs next to each other is questionable. Because the chairs are for the old people. You know, you have to be over 60 to get a chair at the table. Everybody else is on the couch or on the floor. 

So, what I would say is this: because sometimes somebody else, the other way to push back on this, if I can just add to this, but I have small children. Rosaria, I have four sons, and my three other sons are elders in a church, their children are walking with the Lord, but they have young children. I don't want to humanize our prodigal son and his partner because that's going to give an image to my grandchildren that it's okay. And what I've often said in that situation is if your older children are all walking in the Lord, that's wonderful. Maybe they can all have Thanksgiving at their house. And maybe you can deal with your prodigal. And I say that that sounds really harsh, but I think that these moments are intense. And I think if your prodigal wants to come home, and wants to be at the family table with mom and dad, then maybe it's just going to be a really small Thanksgiving. It's something to think about, though, to not burn that bridge. I'm very grateful that Ken and Floy Smith sat me at their table. And they sat me at their table a lot. And it's true. I mean, I didn't bring my partner over to their house. But they came to mind. They met my gay friends. They did all those things. And so I think you have the liberty maybe to be more flexible, as long as you're not giving a false impression to young children. So play with that.

BROWN: I appreciate that. I just have one more question. You said this in our conversation, I've heard you say at other times, you say you helped create the evil in which we live, create the environment that made homosexuality look wholesome. And you're haunted. You've said you're haunted by that. And then this line, you said, you can never let that go. And so when I heard that, I thought, well, how do you press on? How do you strain forward without allowing your past to hold you back? I mean, we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the adversary loves to whisper, “Remember when you did that?”

BUTTERFIELD: That's a great question. And what I would say though, is that my sin isn't just a sin, it's become the idol of our day. So LGBTQ+ isn't just a sin that some people struggle with, either through an indwelling sin or because people have sinned against them. It is the idol of our day. And if Jesus tarries, I believe that we're going to look back on these days in the infamy of Moloch. Okay. This is the idol of our day. I would say just the opposite. So you can tell me, you know, I am kind of an old, cranky, Italian grandma, right? So I do believe that Christ has completely forgiven me. But I also believe that if you make the mess, you clean it up. Okay. And I tell that to my kids, my grandson, that you made this mess, you clean it up. I'm not cleaning it up. So I'm taking the same advice. 

But I'll tell you maybe by an example. My friend Andrew Branch and I were speaking at a school board meeting, my church is the reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. A significant doctrine that we believe in is called the mediatorial kingship of Christ. And that means that we believe the Bible tells us how to proclaim Christ in a hostile world. We don't just need to be a soft presence, doing Evangelism Explosion. Those were nice days. Those days are gone. Now we go to school boards where people call us perverts, no kidding. And one of the things that we always do at these meetings, now you have your three minute speech, you could get a lot done in three minutes. But another thing you can do is you can get to know people. We always sit with the LGBTQ+ activists. And I invite people to dinner, and people come. And why do I do this? Because I see myself in the madness. I remember those days. And you know, here's the thing about intersectionality, post modernism, all of these things that have created a culture of victims. They aren't victims, but they are so inhibited by their own moral collapse that they believe they are. And I think they actually need an older woman coming up alongside them saying things like I was there once now get a grip. And that's really what I do. 

Very recently, we experienced something that's become iconic in all YouTube videos about school boards. After I spoke, a woman who identified herself as a Durham County public school teacher stood up at the microphone and screamed. She screamed. And when she was done screaming, she apologized for the fact that we don't have any black trans voices here. And then she sat down. And I went up to her later, my 20 year old son was with me as my bodyguard that night. So he and I went up to her, you know, later, and I scribbled my phone number on a paper, and I handed it to her. And I said, “Look, I would love to hear what is going on in your life. But I can't interpret screaming, you just need to use your words.” And then we got back in the car and my son turned to me and he said, “Mom, the last time you told me to use my words, I was four.” And you see, and I'm not trying to make fun of her but I'm trying to actually say sin infantilizes people. 

And so that's why Christians who are adopting a Side B Gay Christian perspective, or who are promoting things like let's humanize the trans experience as part of our effort to empathize. You are infants also, you need to stop being infants. We need to grow up. So Myrna, I actually think that just the fact that I'm not in memory care yet I remember what I did. I remember it, I remember it. I think it motivates me to go out there and see myself in the situation and build a gospel bridge to people. And the Lord has really blessed that. People walk that gospel bridge. And we've seen fruit.

EICHER: You mentioned Side B, and you probably know WORLD has done some reporting on the Revoice controversy, which is kind of a Presbyterian phenomenon. And the Unconditional Conference, which I guess is a Baptist, or maybe nondenominational phenomenon, Andy Stanley's church in Atlanta. And feel free to offer any thoughts you care to on any of those subjects. But after that Unconditional Conference, Andy Stanley said, “I do hold to a biblical sexual ethic on marriage.” And I want you to talk a little bit about that. Does that answer the criticism for you? And if it doesn't, why doesn't it? Why wouldn't it be sufficient?

BUTTERFIELD: It shouldn't answer the question for anybody who has two synapses that are firing at this point. And here's why: the issue isn't what you believe in a kind of extracted compartmentalized way. But what is your hermeneutic for living? So if indeed, you actually in a hermeneutical sense, that is if you believed that the Old Testament and the New Testament are connected. And that the New Testament is a revelation of the Old. If you believe this in that sort of way, then you could not do the conference you did and actually believe what you said. 

And so you see this a lot like when you heard Preston Sprinkle in a blog post, say, you know that he did write a book with Francis Chan on the eternality of hell, but he just doesn't really, he believes that there's biblical warrant to not believe in the eternality of hell. And he doesn't think people should be making such a big deal about the fact that he no longer really believes in the eternality of hell, because after all, eternality, it only represents 2% of the words he used in the book. And if you can't change your mind, 2% of the times when you write a book... And you know, you're like, “Oh, I'm in the presence of a wolf right now.” So that kind of logic is wolf logic. Okay. That's pulling-the-wool-over-your-eyes logic. So no, the issue of marriage is that it has hermeneutical impact, specifically in the ordinance of the Creation mandate. And so you could no sooner change marriage, then you could go back and change the creation mandate. It's that integrated. But what actually you're seeing is this very postmodern, very intersectional idea that ideas don't have to connect to each other. And you can just compartmentalize them. 

So you see that right now in the issue going on in Israel. You know, not so long ago, right, progressives told us that silence is violence. But now, violence is okay if it offers some kind of intersectional solution to de-colonialization. Well, you know, we have to help these people to think. And so that was a nonsense move on Andy Stanley's part. What he's trying to do is create a New Testament-only gospel. And that's impossible, because the Gospel itself is found first in the garden. And if you extricate the garden from the gospel, you have no Adam. And if you have no Adam, you have no Christ. So all you have is a kind of therapeutic movement that makes people feel good with gospel and Christian themes. No power of the resurrection. And that's why I say, and I've been saying it for a while, that gay Christianity is a different religion. Gay Christianity and all of its broad evangelical supporters are indeed the mainline, they are equivalent to the mainline church of J. Gresham Machen's day. It's a false religion.

EICHER: How handy is your Psalter? 

BROWN: I was going to say.

BUTTERFIELD: You know, it's in my school bag. I teach later today. Let me go grab it. Yeah. All right. Anybody can sing with me to.

Psalm 23
Scottish Psalter Version

1 The LORD’s my shepherd, I’ll not want.
2 He makes me down to lie
In pastures green: He leadeth me
the quiet waters by.

3 My soul He doth restore again;
and me to walk doth make
Within the paths of righteousness,
ev’n for His own name’s sake.

4 Yea, though I walk in death’s dark vale,
yet will I fear none ill:
For Thou art with me; and Thy rod
and staff me comfort still.

5 My table Thou hast furnished
in presence of my foes;
My head Thou dost with oil anoint,
and my cup overflows.

6 Goodness and mercy all my life
shall surely follow me:
And in God’s house forevermore
my dwelling-place shall be.

BROWN: Author and speaker Rosaria Butterfield has been our special guest. Thank you so much.

BUTTERFIELD: My pleasure. Thank you dear sister and dear brother. May the Lord be with you.

EICHER: You’ve been listening to an extended interview with author and educator Rosaria Butterfield. This is the full version of the edited conversation you heard on the most recent Culture Friday on The World and Everything in It.

BROWN: If you enjoyed this longer interview, please let us know whether this is something you’d like to hear regularly. Just email us at That’s Or leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

EICHER: Talk to you Monday. Have a great weekend!

WORLD Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of WORLD Radio programming is the audio record.


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