A conversation with Laura Perry - S10.E8 | WORLD
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A conversation with Laura Perry - S10.E8


WORLD Radio - A conversation with Laura Perry - S10.E8

One woman's journey from transgenderism to radical transformation in Christ

Laura Beth Perry Handout

I’m Warren Smith, and today you’ll be listening in on my conversation with Laura Beth Perry. After years of trying to live as a man, Laura Perry found Christ’s love in the midst of her detransitioning. Her new book is Transgender to Transformed: A Story of Transition That Will Truly Set You Free.

LAURA PERRY, GUEST: But honestly, this has been such a miraculous work of the Lord. I didn't figure out how to fix it. He fixed it all. I mean, as he just began to peel away the layers, as I began to forgive my mother, as I began to let go of all the bitterness, and it's just like, little by little one step at a time, layer by layer. And he's just brought so much healing. And as he healed the inside, the outside began to change.

Laura Perry lived for nearly a decade as a transgender man named “Jake.” She took testosterone treatments that lowered her voice and caused her to grow facial hair, while cutting short the hair on her head. She even had cosmetic surgery. This was not a mere dabbling or experimentation. She went all in.

It was only then that she realized she was not, in fact, a man trapped in a woman’s body. She was a woman, but by then she had made changes to her body that would be difficult to undo. She shaved her beard, stopped taking testosterone—which caused severe withdrawal pain—and even started attending church again, which led to a renewal of her faith in Christ after years of being far away from the beliefs of her youth. She now ministers to thousands through books and speaking and individual counseling as a staff member at First Stone Ministries in Oklahoma City.

To hear more of Laura Perry’s story, I sat down with her at the recent meeting of the National Religious Broadcasters in Nashville, Tennessee. And just one word of caution: we do talk about things related to Laura's life that might not be suitable for younger listeners. So if you have children around, you might want to hit pause here and come back later.

WS: Well, Laura, welcome to the program. I've got to say that, and I'll be honest, my expectations were low with your book, because I'd never heard of you before. And I'd never heard of the publisher before. And yet I was fascinated by your story. Transgender to Transformed doesn't leave any room for doubt about what this book is about. Right?

LP: That's right.

WS: So, you, let's start with your story. You were raised in a Christian home. And but you were a pretty rebellious kid. Can you say a little about that?

LP: Yeah, it was. And I think, you know, a lot of it was I didn't really understand the gospel. I grew up knowing a lot about God, as far as the rules. And they actually, I don't think I knew a lot about God, I knew a lot about Christianity, in the sense of the rules, we’re supposed to follow the Bible. But I didn't understand God's love, that he wanted this relationship. And I think that's where I kind of got off course. And I didn't want to serve a God that was just nothing but shame and condemnation.

WS: Though, I'm struggling with that a little bit with that explanation just a little bit, Laura. And I want you to kind of circle the square for me, because, because while you didn't really understand the gospel, and you learned sort of the rules of Christianity, you also say in your book throughout that your, your parents were huge supporters of yours. They, I mean they invested, and we'll come to this part of your story in a minute, but they invested thousands, tens of thousands, maybe more than tens of thousands of dollars in therapy and all kinds of, you know, solutions for you. Did you just not feel loved by your parents or by your church? Where, where was the disconnect?

LP: I did by my dad. You know, we were very, very close. My mom and I had a very tough relationship. I think a lot of it was you know, she had a very legalistic, and she'll tell you in her own testimony, she describes herself back then, as being like a Pharisee. She was doing all the right things, checking all the right boxes, but she said she used to feel like she was on a performance treadmill for God, trying so hard to please God in her own flesh, but not really having any kind of relationship with God. And, you know, Jesus said, If we don't abide in the vine, we can do nothing. And without being filled with the Spirit, we don't have that to give away. And so my mom was so stressed out when I was a kid. When I picture her as a child, I still see all the stress on her face. She was burned out. She was constantly just working herself to death, trying to do all the right things. And as a result, our relationship a lot of times, it was like, go away. Get off of me. Leave me alone. I was constantly told I was annoying, and just pushed away. And so mom was telling me about God, but all I'm seeing of her relationship with God is being stressed and burned out and being kind of critical. And so I think that was where a lot of it was, like, I don't want that.

WS: So yeah, in fact, you talk a good bit about that in the book where you say, your relationship with your dad was healthy and intimate. Your relationship with your mom was confrontational, antagonistic, was not loving at all, was kind of distant. And so you grew up, at least for the first you know, 10, 12 years of your life, not wanting to be a woman. You would look at your mother and say, I don't want to be a woman. I want to be a man. And do you think that that was the, if you will, the beginnings of your transgenderism?

LP: It was. You know, and I just as a young child, I was constantly pushed toward my dad. I was told I was I acted just like him. I looked just like him. You know, we're two peas in a pod. And my mom was very, very close with my brother. And I used to wonder, maybe mom wished I had been a boy. She miscarried two boys between my brother and I. And I thought maybe she wishes one of them had lived. And so I began to dress in my brother's clothes. I began to play with his toys. And I just wanted to be around him 24/7. I wanted to be my brother. I was very jealous of him. And so that's where a lot of that confusion started.

WS: And yet, you hit puberty. And so that kind of, was a, was kind of a weird, I mean, it's weird and strange for everybody, right? But it was even maybe more weird and strange for you, because you were estranged from your mom, in many ways. You didn't have this close relationship, and yet going through puberty tends to change the relationship that little girls have with their daddy as well, right?

LP: Yeah. And it did. And, you know, my dad and I weren't as close. He started working late a lot. And so I, I began to feel quite alone. And I was going through just tumultuous teen years, you know, and I think most do. I was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome. So I had cysts all over my ovaries and I was in constant chronic, just excruciating pain. And I began to really resent my female body because of it. And I already didn't want to be a girl in the first place. And I had spent years fantasizing about being a boy and writing stories about being a boy. And now, now that I was a teenager, though, I was like, well, I can't, there's nothing I can do about it. I'd never heard the word transgender back then. And so I had never considered actually transitioning, because I just never even heard of that. So I was trying to fix it in the best way that I could. And I was trying to get love from men. And so I really began, just kind of sleeping around with guys, trying so hard to fill that void, trying so hard to be loved. And the more that I gave away to guys, the more they would treat me like trash. And I was dumped and rejected just over and over and over again. And I began to just lose my self worth.

WS: So what happened next?

LP: Well, as I was, I was getting deeper and deeper into sexual addiction, and began to get into a major pornography addiction, and began fantasizing about what if I had been the man. And I was just tired of being treated so badly by these guys. And I thought, you know, the reason this never works out, the reason I'm never happy, is because I was supposed to be the man. If I was the man, I know how to treat a woman. And I had, I had been interested in a couple of friends over the years. Not, I hadn't pursued it much. I didn't see myself as a lesbian. But I thought, if I become the man, I know how to treat a girl, and this will all work fine. You know, I'll finally have that good relationship I've always wanted. And so I, I looked it up on Google. I'd never heard of it. But I thought, wow, there's all these people that feel like I do. And I found a support group where I was living. And I went, and within five minutes they were like, oh, you're definitely transgender. I knew this was me, this all makes sense. And you look back on your entire childhood, and you go, this, this makes perfect sense. This is who I am. I'm just a man trapped in a woman's body. All I need to do is fix the body. And my life's gonna be great. And so I began to take the hormones, made all the legal changes.

WS: Talk to me just a little bit. Laura, let me just pause you there. How old were you? What year was this?

LP: I was 25. I was still in college because I changed my major quite a few times and was a little indecisive. And so I just was, yeah, I was trying to figure things out. But I remember feeling just so lost. But it was like, this was like that ‘aha’ moment of, my entire life makes sense. It seemed to.

WS: So you heard the word transgender. You said that's who I am. You started going through, you know, taking active steps, taking hormones, and, and even surgery at one point, is that correct?

LP: Yeah, in 2009, I was about two years into the transition. I went and had a double mastectomy with a little bit of chest reconstruction to make it look like a male chest. And I remember thinking this surgery made me legally male, and I was just on top of the world. I thought this is the greatest thing ever. You know, this is gonna solve all my problems. And I remember I went back to work, and my boss was a lesbian. She was very pro LGBT. You know, she's very excited about my transition. But she got in my face one day, and she said, look, I don't know what's going on with you. But you're moping around here. You're depressed. You're not working as hard. You're unmotivated. I don't know what's wrong with you. But I want the old Jake back. And I was like, what do you mean, I'm, I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life. You don't know what you're talking about. You know, but I kind of blew her off. But I went home and I thought, what is she seeing in me that I'm not seeing in myself? It really bothered me. I couldn't get out of my head that night.

WS: And by the way, Jake was the name you went by. You, when you said ‘the old Jake,’ that was, Jake was your male name.

LP: It was, yeah. My, my name was legally, Jacob. And I went by Jake. And, you know, I had this male identity, I had this job where I was only known as male. And I was like, on top of the world, but she was seeing something in me that I hadn't been paying a lot of attention to. But I went home and I realized she was right. I actually, despite being kind of happy about all this, I was actually very depressed as well, because I realized that my surgery hadn't made me a man. Everything I was doing was so fake. And I realized that I was changing the outward appearance, but it wasn't solving the deeper conflict inside. And I kept thinking, well, you know, maybe the next step, well, maybe the next step. Maybe after a few years of hormones, maybe after another surgery. So a couple years later, I had all the female organs removed, not not the genitals, but I had a hysterectomy and had the ovaries removed. And, you know, I thought, well, that way, I won't have any female hormones.

WS: So let me pause you there, Laura. Because that, I mean, as I'm reading your book, I mean, the thing that I love, that I really like about your book is that it is, it's very straightforward. I mean, you're just, you, this happened, then this happened, and this happened. And whenever, I mean, it's, there was though, at some point, where I started realizing, sort of the weight of all of this, with, as a reader, started kind of hitting me. I mean, you know, you had been taking hormones. You could grow a beard. You can, you were growing facial hair. You had had, you know, double mastectomy. So you were, you'd had a hysterectomy. I mean this was, you know there's and forgive me for being a little bit glib here. But there's, there's an old joke about being a LUG-lesbian until graduation, where girls experiment with, you know, sexuality, maybe, when they're young, and boys as well. You weren't playing around. You were serious.

LP: Yeah, I mean, I had made major changes to my body. And anytime those doubts would creep in, I had to push it away, because I was too invested at this point. And this is what I wanted, I wanted to believe it was real. And there were times that I was like, I know this is fake, but maybe it will be real, maybe the next step, maybe the next thing. And so I kept pursuing this. And when I finally started looking into the genital reassignment surgery, I was devastated. Because I realized how fake it all was. Even those final surgeries that I thought was going to, that will really make me a man, I realized, it's all a lie, it's all fake. And on top of that, there are horrible complications. That, these surgeries are just really horrific. And on top of that, it was going to cost me $100,000. There was no way I was ever going to have that kind of money. And I, I really began to realize with a lot of devastation that, like this is never going to be real. And I remember thinking, what now? Well, I'm not gonna go back to being female. For one, I had a much lower voice, I had facial hair. I had a job where I was only known as male. I had this partner. I was really invested in this life. I'd given up everything. And I, every time I thought about being female, it was so painful. I couldn't bear it. I just started drifting through life. And I remember being really restless. And I thought, there's got to be more to life than this. And I just was so depressed. And in one sense, I was happy because I was, I was glad people were calling me a man. I had that that sort of affirmation. Every time somebody called me a man it would give me this feeling of affirmation, this elation, but there was this deeper depression under the surface. But all this time, God had been pursuing me and I didn't want God, I was sort of running the other way.

WS: Yeah, I would say sort of running the other way is a little bit of an understatement at this point, right?

LP: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I really, in high school, I wanted to be the opposite of a Christian. I wanted as far away from God as possible. There were, I was praying to Satan, asking Satan to keep people from coming to know Jesus, because I hated God. I had gotten really angry. And, you know, I realized, though, I used to blame my mom. But now, in more recent years, I've realized that it was my own bitterness and unforgiveness that really started to harden my heart. And so I was, so I had so much hatred of God, but I looked back, and I know he was answering my parents prayers, because that whole time God was pursuing me, little by little. Things over the radio, through various people. There were just all kinds of different situations. And I remember one night where he just encountered me and I knew I had experienced the presence of God. In my car, when the Christian music came on, I turned off my, my CD or whatever, and the Christian music came on, it just filled my car with this, the presence of God, like I'd never experienced. And I knew God was pursuing me. And that's years before I got saved. But it's like that, I look back and that whole time, God was just gently showing me who he really was. Because all I knew was all the rules and all the ways that I was falling short. But all of a sudden, God began to reveal who he was to me. I think that's what began to change my perspective a little bit. My mom asked me to make a website for her Bible study. And I had this idea to summarize the lessons. And so I just was kind of skimming them looking for a good quote here and there.

WS: And by the way, I should probably, you'd developed some web skills, some technology, some computer skills by this point, because of all of your training and education and passions. Yeah,

LP: Yeah. And I wasn't a great designer, to be honest, but enough that, that I could do the website. She was gonna pay me for it. And, you know, as I started doing this, and people think that my mom figured out how to fix me. It's so funny. She'd tried to fix me her whole life. She had really surrendered me into the Lord's hands, and God, after years of her just praying and trusting God, he was starting to use her. And so we started having these conversations, because I was curious about what she was studying, because I'd never heard this part of God, I'd never heard these things about the Bible. And these deeper things that I'd never understood. So I started asking her questions, and she would just kind of gently and patiently answer. And over about six months, I noticed that my mom was different. I thought back over the conversations. I thought, She's filled with peace that I have never seen in my mother. She has this faith, like I've never known. I remember one time she told me that I had this big decision to make and she said, “Honey, you just need to trust the Lord.” And I was blown away by that. I'd never heard my mom say that to me in my life. I said, “Mom, what's happened to you?” You're not the mother I grew up with. And she told me how she truly surrendered her life and let the Holy Spirit begin to work in her and she had been so transformed. It was like at that moment I knew the gospel was true. Like this is real. Christ is alive because this is not just a change of mind. This is not some religion. There's some, there's a real power in her that I could see that had absolutely changed her, after 40 years of her trying. And so I was just, I was so blown away by the change in my mom. I wanted what she had.

So I went home and I just began to pour out my heart to God. But I really didn't believe that God would save me, after all I had done, after all the sin I had been in. Because, you know, I had been hurt as a child, but I was a wretch. I had really just spit in God's face for so long. And I'd heard a lot of people, I had been in so much sexual sin. I thought, why would God ever want me? And so for several days, I was just restless. I didn't know what to do about it. And I began to cry out to God. And I wanted, I wanted God, but I didn't feel worthy. And you know, of course, I know now none of us are. But I had this incredible encounter with God, where he proved to me that he wasn't done with me yet. And I still remember being so, so blown away by the fact that God still wanted me. Because I felt so unlovable. I felt so unworthy. And I just really gave my heart to him. And I was so on fire for the Lord. I remember just being so transformed, when I really gave my heart to him and really repented of my sin. And, but I thought it was going to be a man of God. I was shocked that God had saved me.

WS: Yeah, let me, let me just pause you there for a minute, Laura. Because you met Jesus, you know, um, it was a real experience, a real salvation, a real born again experience there. And yet you were still transgender. You thought you were still gonna be. I mean, that, that that was a little bit of a, I mean, 'cuz I know, since then you've, you've had some theology training and so on and so forth. How do you explain that today? I mean, you know, you, yes, you repented. But you didn't fully repent of being a man at that point. Right?

LP: Well, you know, and I think sometimes they're just, we're not always aware of everything. I had convinced myself that this is the way I was supposed to be, you know? And I, like, we don't have to clean ourselves up in order for God to say, like he, he cleans us up for us. And he works on things over time. And I think God knew that I wasn't going to stay there, you know. And so that I know, I have no doubts that I was saved, I was so transformed. All my desires began to change. I was so on fire for the Lord. I was telling people about Jesus all the time. And but little by little, he began convicting me. And so you know, I kept trying to shove it under the rug. I kept trying to say, you know, well, maybe that's not that big of a deal. But he kept convicting me more and more and more. And I remember at one point, like, because people will say, Oh, this verse really means that verse or, you know, they twist the Bible verses. And they'll say, well, these we'll just cut those out of the Bible or ignore these. When the Holy Spirit got a hold of me, the whole Bible was telling me I couldn't be transgender. It was like, I just began to be so convicted. I remember hearing a sermon by Charles Stanley one day where he must have said the word obedience 500 times. And I just felt about this big. And so.

WS: So how do you, I mean, we've got we're gonna have to skip a lot Laura, just for the sake of time here. But I do want to drill down on this just a little bit. So what do you do? So you, you, you know, Jesus saves you. The transformation, the sanctification process has begun in earnest. You've done some things to your body that you can't take back, that you can't undo. How do you deal with that emotionally, spiritually, and physically.

LP: Right. Well, you know, and when the Lord called me out of this, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. He was so gentle, and so patient. But it was like, come and follow me, just trust me. And I really had no idea what my life was gonna look like. I thought I'd be miserable the rest of my life. I didn't think I'd ever look like a girl again. I didn't think I'd ever feel like a girl again. But honestly, this has been such a miraculous work of the Lord. I didn't figure out how to fix it. He fixed it all. I mean, as he just began to peel away the layers, as I began to forgive my mother, as I began to let go of all the bitterness, and it's just like, little by little one step at a time, layer by layer. And he's just brought so much healing. And as he healed the inside, the outside began to change. My desires begin to change. My attitudes began to change. And I looked back one day, I was like, I actually like being a woman. I mean, well, it was a progression. It was like, okay, I'm okay. And then I'm kind of comfortable. You know, and then I was starting to like it. And then more and more, God just began to transform me. And now even recently, he's brought so much healing in my life. I'm now engaged to be married.

WS: Wow. Yeah. No, I saw that on Facebook. Congratulations. Yeah, that is an amazing thing. And so yeah, you're engaged to be married and you've been in ministry now for what? Eight, ten years?

LP: About three, three or four years.

WS: Oh, three, four years, just three or four years. Okay.

LP: I've been out of the lifestyle, about five and a half years.

WS: Okay. I gotcha. And so there was a moment as you were coming out of the lifestyle, where you went to church with your parents, I think for the first time, as Laura again, right? Not as Jake. Can you talk about that?

LP: Yeah, honestly, I was so scared. And I was so, I still felt so out of place. I felt so weird having on female clothes again. And I'll never forget, I was walking up and my 86 year old, parent, my parents' neighbor recognized me. She hadn't seen me in years. And she grabbed my arm. She said, I know you. Come sit with me. I was shocked. And I walk in. And like, so many people recognized me. I had only been back once in the last 15 years. But people recognized me and they were so glad to see me. I think the Lord just maybe gave them that understanding. I don't know, I couldn't explain it because I looked so masculine. But at the same time, everybody was so excited to see me. And there was so much love and acceptance from them. And they were, and honestly over the next few weeks as the Lord really began to transform me, and I eventually got baptized a few weeks later, and revival hit the church as they saw this absolute radical transformation. They saw years of prayer answered for these prodigals. And there was, it was kind of the spark of a revival.

WS: Wow. Well, that's really amazing. So okay, I've had my timeframe, just a little bit off. And so you, you, you get saved, there's a process of coming out of the lifestyle. You then sort of out yourself as a woman again, at your parents' church. Talk to me a little bit more about what's happened since then. I mean, you we said we skipped ahead, that you you've just recently gotten engaged. But tell me about your ministry life, your theological training. I mean, you know, I mean, it sounds great that you radically transformed out of this lifestyle. But there's got to be some emotional, some spiritual healing, some growth, some maturity that had to take place in your life. What has the last three or four years looked like for you?

LP: Yeah, and well, and I think one thing that really helped, the first year I was home, my parents didn't, they really encouraged me to just take time to heal. Because I wanted to work and I was feeling guilty about sort of freeloading. But they said, just take time. There's time to work. And I was so involved in the church. I was involved in all kinds of Bible studies and stuff. And I was, I was reading the word, studying and memorizing tons of Scripture, hours and hours and hours a day. But involved in prayer meetings, and Bible study, and all kinds of different things. And I just begin to, it's like that identity began to fade away as I became more and more part of the body of Christ. And my identity became more in Christ and not in what I was feeling. And it became less about me and more about Christ. And then I started speaking a little bit, and sharing my testimony here and there. And about three years ago, I went to Oklahoma City and became part of First Stone Ministries. And there, they had been doing this ministry for, you know, 20 or 30 years, the two leaders of it. And so I was, I really got some great training from them, a lot of years of wisdom and experience from them. And some deeper theological training as well.

WS: Yeah. Okay, so now fast forward to today. I mean, you know, you're still a human being like the rest of us. The the sanctification process continues. The healing process continues. I'm sure you and your fiance, soon to be husband, will encounter some challenges as a, you know, newlyweds and so on and so forth, just like all the rest of us have. But you're on a new path now. And a part of the path that you're on is teaching others. What advice do you have to parents, who might be listening to this, or grandparents and they, you know, transgenderism has kind of become the, you know, you know, if orange is the new black, crimson jet transgenderism is kind of become the new cool in a lot of ways, for especially for young people. What advice do you have for parents?

LP: Well, the number one thing , I piece of advice I have for parents, is to first seek the Lord. And that makes it sound trite. But, but it's the reality of what my parents discovered. They tried so hard for so long to fix me. And especially if we're talking about an adult child. I talked to many, many parents that have adult prodigal children, not just in this lifestyle, but in other lifestyles. And, you know, the Lord wants us all to be focused on him, to pursue him, to really surrender whatever it is that we're trying to control in our lives, because we really don't have control, you know, but to trust him in the journey. In fact, God at one point told my mom, he said, Francine, only one of us is going to work on her. If you want to work on her, I'll go sit down. But if you want me to work on her, you go sit down. You get in the Word, and you work on your relationship with me, and I will work on Laura. And that's what he did. And we looked back and it was such a miracle. I mean, my parents could never have even conceived the amazing things that God was going to do. And so the more that they, and actually as they focused less on me and more on Christ, it began to make me curious, it began to draw me a little bit. And they became such a living testimony, even if they didn't say anything about what I was living in. And they didn't compromise the Word of God. And they would, they would set the boundaries very clear and say, No, we can't do that, but we love you. And I knew they loved me. But they became just this amazing testimony of the love of Christ.

WS: Anything else that you would tell parents or grandparents that, you know, might have kids that are maybe even acting out in the early stages, if they're junior high, and high school kids even?

LP: Yeah, one of the best things is to affirm who they really are. And not just to flippantly say, you know, you know, God made you that way, and he doesn't make any mistakes. And I used to hear that. But affirming who they really are in specific ways. For example, like a boy that is more creative and artistic sometimes, will will measure himself against the jocks or, you know, other guys that he perceives as more masculine. Show him ways that he's like other men. Show him how he's like his father. Show him how he's like his brothers. Or maybe the more athletic, rough girl. Show her how she's like her mother, things like that. And just reaffirming who they truly are. And it's really critical. Kids absolutely do need both parents. But kids really need their same sex parent. And I think that's often overlooked, because there's a natural, I don't know what the term is for it. But they say that girls often are more comfortable with their dad, boys are more comfortable with their mom. But they really need that same sex parent, they need that affirmation of who they are, and that identity with that same sex parent.

WS: So well, it's just such a great word, Laura, I really, like I say, I thought maybe, maybe this is more about me than that I'm that I'm willing to admit. But I did have, you know, low expectations of the book, because I had not read it before. It just, it's a great read. I mean, it's really well done. I found the story just completely enthralling. And I just pray that the Lord uses it as he is already using you. And I really appreciate you sharing your story today. Before we leave just though when I sometimes ask this question of people. Anything that you want to say that I'm just not smart enough to ask?

LP: Well, just to, if anybody is listening that is struggling, and maybe you just think there's no way you could ever change, or. God radically transformed me in such a way that I really did not believe God could do. I thought I'd be miserable the rest of my life. But through faith and obedience in Christ, I have been blown away at what God has done. And now you couldn't pay me enough to go back. So I just want to encourage whoever's out there listening to to really surrender their life to Jesus.

That brings to a close my conversation with Laura Perry. A couple of postscripts to Laura’s story are perhaps in order here. Though she has detransitioned to live as a woman, some of the consequences of her attempts to be a man are permanent. She can never have children. She suffers from muscle spasms and cognitive and memory loss she believes are connected with her hormone treatments.

I should also add that my interview with Laura Perry is not the first time we’ve featured her here at WORLD. You can read Mary Jackson’s excellent profile of Laura by going to the WORLD News Group website and typing “Laura Perry” into the search engine - that’s WNG.org.

And, there’s also this: last weekend, on May 14, Laura Perry got married at a beautiful service in Oklahoma City. Her husband Perry Smalts is a music minister she met through her church. Congratulations and God’s blessings on that marriage.

Listening In comes to you from WORLD News Group, and this program is just one of the many benefits that comes with a WORLD subscription. To find out more, visit WNG.org/subscribe.

Also, a reminder that we have an extensive archive of more than 450 conversations with writers, filmmakers, musicians, artists, politicians and pastors, news makers, and interesting people of all kinds. So if you’re new to the program, head over to the World News Group website and use the search engine to explore what we have there. Again, that’s WNG.org.

Tune in next week to hear my conversation with author and professor George Yancey. His new book is Beyond Racial Division: A Unifying Alternative To Colorblindness and AntiRacism. I think the book is a useful addition to the conversation we are having about race in America, and I also think you’ll find our conversation nourishing and helpful.

The producer for today’s program is Leigh Jones. Johnny Franklin is the technical producer. And Paul Butler is executive producer for WORLD Radio. I’m your host, Warren Smith. And you’ve been Listening In…

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