A conversation with Keith Getty - S11.E12

[Note: due to the nature of the connection with today's guest, this transcript is very rough]

Warren Smith
Well, Keith, welcome back to the program. It's great to see you and also to celebrate your new album, Confesio. And what number one on the Billboard charts is that right?

Keith Getty
When the album charts it, obviously doesn't include streaming. So it's but anyway, our staff called me up, and they wanted to celebrate yesterday. So I said, guys, you know what, you've worked hard. Let's celebrate. So we celebrated for all of 30 minutes.

Warren Smith
Well, congratulations, I'll celebrate with you, at least for 30 seconds right now, that's a huge accomplishment. And, you know, I want to talk about some of the individual songs and about your songwriting process. And in fact, you are interrupting a, a two day retreat that you have with your songwriters just to have this interview with me. So I'm grateful for that.

Keith Getty
Now, it's great to [indiscernable] are working on their new project and pretty excited about it. So but for Warren Smith, anything,

Warren Smith
he Well, I'm grateful for that. And let's talk about the album first, tell me how it came about. And you know, it's been a couple of years that you guys have produced an album what's, you know, why the songs why now?

Keith Getty
Well, it was, we've done an album each of the last three years, but it's, you're right - it's the first album of hymns. So it really is just, I think you interviewed us the week after COVID started when Christ Our Hope in Life and Death just came out and the hymn sings with the kids, it just started. And really, this is just kind of the hymn journey since then. So it's just hymns. They tend to be big, big gospel hymns, looking at big subjects of life and death, and by the congregational songs, we're really we're really excited about it opens up a few new doors as well.

Warren Smith
Well, you know, one of the things that I've always admired Keith, about you and your work is that it is super collaborative. And of course, I've gotten to know you a little bit over the years I know you to be an extrovert and you love people and you sort of are you are what I call a convener that you're able to bring people together, both for work and for purpose. And, you know, the fact that you've got you know, folks in your home right now doing this songwriting retreat is an example of that. But you've got Scott Peterson on this, you got rent collective on this, you know, you you give Matt pop and Matt Boswell, a Jordan Coughlin and others a lot of props in the CO writing and the CO by lines and all that kind of stuff. Tell me about that. What what is it about you that causes you to want to do that? Sure. Either

Keith Getty
Sure. Well I think it was the timeless philosopher, Forrest Gump, who said, stupid is as stupid does. So I kind of fit in that category. You know, it wasn't one of the most, one of the words that was most proud of getting a number of years ago when I was at the sermon when I was introduced is the weak link of four different chins. And so you know, when you when you're kind of when you're kind of in the one one category of talent, as opposed to the four, the five and the parable that Jesus told you kind of need other people. And so I do enjoy that. And, and that's been kind of the part of the privilege of the him writing for us. It's always been that way. And, and, you know, each new friendship, you know, it was, I think it was when Lewis and Tolkien and Charles William used to get together, they always said, I think one of them died. And it's a beautiful story told that the consolation was that it was just the two of them to get to know each other more, but actually, the third person brought such a unique part of their personality so that there was a part of them died when the other one died. And I think that's the joy of collaboration is when God creates us in community. And, you know, I've always been that way, in part, quite honestly, because I'm sure a personality but personality being an extrovert, but honestly, because I need other people have gotten over wired me in a way that I could do the thing myself, and, and this project, you know, you know, the whole arm movement that our organization getting as the organization and the Getty Music Foundation are involved in is a 2050 goal. It's when we've got a goal, we've got goals you want to hit by 2050, we of course, want to hit 2025, with a with a plan if I die tomorrow. And so it really isn't like being an artist, more than being sort of my heroes are neither artists like, you know, or entrepreneurial leaders rather ideologues. So William Wilberforce, Billy Graham, they are kind of more my heroes, you know, domain because we believe if we can create and curate and publish great hymns on the whole sort of spectrum of the of the God of the Bible and the Christian life, and we can translate those into the 12 major languages, the word of 2015. And then we've changed history, you know what I mean that by the power of God through the Spirit of God, and by the will of God, so I think what that target down the line, I'm just always trying to see how I can encourage people or, or move along with them. And honestly, that's, I get more of a buzz. I've seen our guys doing stuff than do myself, gentlemen. So yeah, it's still it's nice to read a song. I mean, you hear a song with somebody else writes, you still wish you'd thought of it first. Do you find that with a journalist article or?

Warren Smith
Well, yeah, I do. I read things all the time where I say, Boy, I wish I had written that is that, you know, it's sort of this because I'm a huge When it's kind of this mixed emotion of just admiration and celebration, then you know that someone wrote something great. And also, you know that dang it, you know what, why could not have done that myself, you know, kind of

Keith Getty
Just in case you were thinking somehow that my skill set made me selfless. I want to assure you it doesn't.

Warren Smith
Yeah. Right, right. Well, you know, you've mentioned just in the first couple of minutes, you know, you've mentioned Tolkien and Lewis and the Inklings. You've mentioned the Clapham group that was sort of around William Wilberforce. And in some ways, that's what you have done, right? You're trying to create this, this, not not just business collaboration, but kind of a songwriting collective, and a community where you guys come in you, you mutually support each other whenever they you know, whenever the individuals have successes on their own, you can celebrate that together. But you could you also bring out the best in each other as well, it seems like,

Keith Getty
Well, that's the hope. I mean, that's what mean, that the same conference, kind of the first time as soon as that started, the guys all came and said, you know, let's let's create this kind of publishing collective and so we we've done that it's been it's been honestly, I, it's just a joy to be with all those guys. It really is, you know, it's, it's fantastic. And they bring out the best in each other interesting. I mean, even this album, you know, we did a song called Rejoice in the Lord, which is a more contemporary opening song for service. Well, the hardest thing for any of us who are looking for more solid biblical foundations in our singing, as we know, I have quite a lot of resources in mid tempo songs and slow songs, both in contemporary and in traditional hymns. But it's finding songs that have a bit more energy, that perhaps open a service or appeal to younger younger generation, or just cheer us up or, or good or good to listen to in the car. That's where we begin to struggle more. And so you know, that we, you know, two of our two of our team wrote this, with each breath he's given praise the Lord. And these times we live in, we will praise the Lord throughout every season, I'm sure I've ever eaten dessert. And I looked at it and actually, that brought a point the song rejoice. And it was, I got to just, you know, I was talking to little Skye Peterson who was talking about you know, as a Gen Z kid, and talking to younger Gen Z kids and then talking to my daughter, and realizing that just the levels of anxiety they face. And and it's terribly surprising, given the things that eight year old girls and 12 year old girls and 16 year old girls are having to face. But then you go back 75 years this year 70, they're doing a 75 anniversary this year, if W H Auden's Edge of Anxiety, which of course Leonard Bernstein set the music to. And that was that was like 24 months after after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and looking at a new nuclear world, everybody's anxiety levels have gone up. Well, of course, if Aden came forward 75 years now and saw kids, it would be just unbelievably up again. And then you go back again, to the apostle Paul, who is winning the president running to the Philippians. And knowing he'll only ever get to let me see daylight once again, there's lighting for months to be executed. And he writes, Rejoice in the Lord always again, I say rejoice. Let your gentleness be evident to all that the Lord is near. And do not be anxious about anything. But in prayer and petition, submit your request to the Lord. And, you know, it's interesting that we, you know, can we go back when we actually bother to go back to the old liturgies, that, that the that the reformers and others and the strict fathers gave us based on the scriptures, that's often a call to worship. In evangelical circles, everyone and rejoice are those who rejoice just like your Evans, let your gentleness be able to do that's usually a corrective because you're getting nervous about your school exams or something, or because you're losing your temper, you know what I mean? It's actually a call to worship. And so we just took this first six verses of verse For Philippians. And we put it together three verses in each each of the song verses. And that's been a really, again, it's a slight twist, it's a bit more, it's a bit more raucous than we usually do. So I've brought in the RAND collective here the most, you know, classic group of thugs you'll ever meet, and did a kind of emotional refresh, high energy version of the song. So that's one example of pi. Collaboration with different groups, you know, has brought brought this kind of a really interesting conclusion. Yeah,

Warren Smith
well, you know, you, you're bringing out something that I mean, Keith, I've got so many things I want to talk to you about. So I feel a little bit like a grease on a hot griddle. I'm just skipping around here. But But since you brought up this point, I want to ask you a little bit more about it. And that is that the songs that you write and the songs that your collaborators write, you're very intentionally, it seems to me trying to serve the church. In other words, even even this song, you said, you know, we needed a song to open worship with, is that intentionally a part of, or maybe the beginning of a song where you will get together and say, We need a song for this place in the liturgy or this place in the service or, or does it come from a different place.

Keith Getty
I think that's the whole thing. I mean, if you don't, if we can't feel it, if I can't feel it in a service, albeit with all my cultural restrictions that I bring, I think that's the issue. I will say from the start, I mean, shilen Singh conference this year, you know, he said, the reason that our God is not restricted to one cultural expression, is because he isn't restricted to 1000 cultural expressions, even that would be to reduce him. And so I want to make clear that anything I say is coming from my own cultural, you know, the music that I write is coming from my own cultural bag of tricks, which is, you know, you know, fundamentalist kid brought up the classical music home in Ireland and the Presbyterian Church, and you can kind of put those four things in a juicer, and that can, it's pretty obvious what comes out, you know, is still, you know, within my own limitations, that's what all the songs are about. Sometimes it's sometimes it's an idea that we're then trying to work out how that will work in a service. Sometimes it's actually as simple as we need more songs to open a service with because, you know, because, you know, conservatives don't dance and need some more songs at the start.

Warren Smith
Right? Well, I, we can't talk about every song on the album. But there are a couple of other songs that I do want to talk about a one is take shelter. That's a beautiful song. It's a at least from a performance point of view or on the album. It's between your wife, Kristen, and Skye Peterson. And Skye is Andrew Peterson's daughter. She's very young. What is it about Skye that made you and Kristen say, You know what, this girl is special. And we want to bring her into the group.

Keith Getty
We signed, we signed our first teenage hymn writer. So yeah, that was [indiscernable] as a teenager. So that was cool. I think she is she's all the things you would expect from someone of the absolute class and vision and ability of Andrew Peterson. You know, I, I call I was watching the video last night, and he called him on the phone and just say, Andrew, you know, I hope I hope whatever you did, I can learn something. You know what I mean? Because I got for coming after and my girls just think sky is as cool as it. It's just cool gentleman, he thinks she's fantastic. But you know, she's got this, this innate creativity. And she understands the loveliness of the gospel. I mean, she did a solid at the same conference. The Archbishop Folly Beach of the Anglican Church led us in a, in a service in the junipers section of the conference this year. And for the assurance of part and we dropped in a song, their insurance if pardon, usually to move to the Gospel, or is something liturgical, or evangelicals move to something kind of very kind of just like gospel where, you know, we're made right again germane tonight. And she took George Herbert's poem love beds, me welcome. Love, still beds, me welcome. And just that lovely turn of emotion that was still as richly theological, but was so much more inviting, and so much more winsome. And I actually think that history of female hymn writers does that as well. You know, so many of the hymns were, where the grid homes are written by females and they've got a good eye, that's a whole conversation, I don't want to I don't want to necessarily open it too far. But I think there's, you know, there's something in the same way as you know, a big all the Fortune 500 companies now want to make sure they have at least 20 - 30% minimum, if not 50% of your directors to be females, because they bring in a different intelligence. I think in the emotional intelligence, there is extraordinary. So she's she's great, good kid. And she's doing [Indiscernible] her singer songwriter thing, when we created this deal that she can also then do a, be a part of our hymn writer are connected to the hymns. Take Shelter, is still to me feels like a singer songwriter song, but the chorus we need to do the chorus. Everybody in church sings it. So I suspect it will become popular in churches as well. Not as a standard hymn. But as a song was done in services that everybody joins in with. And again, she started on that subject of anxiety. And , but the song just sort of stopped. And then she asked Kristen to get involved. And that just happened to be the week Russian / Ukraine broke out. And so they did that lyric you can tell you know, you know, some of the lyrics in it are very much leaning towards wars, the wars as they have been before, see what I mean? Those kind of lines were just just beautiful. And so it was really poignant. It's actually it's actually been really well received. And I'm really, really excited about that. So that's a good song to listen to as well just.

Warren Smith
Yeah, well, and of course she's got a spectacular voice as well. I mean, I don't know I hear almost a little bit of Alison Krauss whenever I hear Skye Peterson saying there's kind of this angelic Wisp Enos to it that that

Keith Getty
seems okay. Right. I hear that too. That's great. Well,

Warren Smith
okay, the title song y'all actually wrote a couple of years ago, Christ our hope in life and death, based on the first question Stan and answer of the Heidelberg Catechism, once again, coming from the rich tradition of the church. But you know, I can tell you, Keith, in my little church here in Charlotte, North Carolina, that song, I wouldn't say it has usurped in Christ alone, because we still see in Christ alone a lot in our church, but we're singing that song a lot, you know, in our congregational singing, and I'm discovering when I talk to other people that others are doing that as well. I mean, that's gotta make you feel great, right? Not not only when you just write a great song that you can perform, but when, you know, those songs are kind of taking on a second life and are being sung within, you know, churches, large and small, not just here in the US, but all over the world.

Keith Getty
Yeah, that's within eight months, that song was our second biggest song in history, our history. So that's, that's just been a real exciting thing. And they've come out you're in COVID, of course, was good as well. So and also, it was great, because it was the first for writers to be signed to the publishing company. So it was like, I think the Lord has shown his kindness when I wanted to write him, the first time that was released was In Christ Alone. And it was almost like, I don't overthink it. Because, you know, a Presbyterian, we don't you don't have emotions, but you know, but it almost like was the Lord pushing us to get started, you know, and he said, I'm gonna give you this one today, we're gonna get it again. But you know, here's the start. And then, almost 20 years on Christ, you're hoping life and death as we started, the publishing company began to, we brought the guys to Ireland, and the first trip to Ireland, we all sat around in a circle and stumbled across this. Oh, 605 of us. And, and that was just like launching the publishing companies. So it's kind of been, that's been a good thing. And also, I think that of all the catechisms I think the Heidelberg is is by far the most emotional before the most poetic. And so I was just absolutely thrilled I had been trying, since I started since it's just after in crystal and to try and do something with the Heidelberg Catechism. So it only took 20 years.

Warren Smith
Yeah, well, I was kind of raised on the Westminster catechism. So I'm sort of late to the party when it comes to the Heidelberg Catechism but I but I do have to agree with you. I think it is very beautiful. And, you know, and just, you know, that got that theological and doctrinal solidness to it as well while also having the beauty so I really respect and appreciate that so much and and by the way, since I've mentioned a couple of songwriters, but but just to give everybody their due here so you've got you've got Matt Papa, you've got Matt Boswell. You got Jordan Coughlin you've got now Skye Peterson and who am I leaving out?

KG: Matt Mercker...

WS: Matt Mercker, right of course, yeah.

Keith Getty
Ben Scheif wrote in both the songs you taught with both rejoice and take shelter Ben Scheif of course is there, Laura Story has joined the company [indiscernable] church music director. But Papa and Basel are actually involved in The Lord Almighty Reigns, and that of all the songs in the record, that might be they want to most actually excited about it. There was 30 tracks with Christ broken life and death and rejoice and load of materials and take shelter. Lord of the Rings was a song that Kristen basically come up with this idea. This chorus idea, and she Kristen always loved hymns of heaven. Interestingly, of course, the Lennox is John Lennox and all the rest of their families origin is Plymouth brothers who actually were famous in their first generation Jay and Darby, for him is about heaven. So something has trickled down her to origins, even though she's not connected to ignite, but that she loves to write hymns in heaven. And I think, strategically as we look at trying to help the next generation and help the church with thought today, I mean, there's any number of top 100 hymns, if you google them online, most of them, you will usually find Eddie tonight the of the top traditional hammers and these lists will have something to do with heaven, hell, eternity, a final verse about going to be with the Lord or resting with him or God are judge Germain. So you will find it and it will do that. And modern worship lists. Certainly, if you take, certainly 20 years ago, before we saw from Grace and Citylight, were doing their stuff. You tended to find four to six out of 100 had anything to do with eternity. And certainly most of those lists will not have more than 10. If you take out the modern hymns, most modern worship, some of us will not have more than 10 out of 100 that have anything to do with life beyond this life. And so when we it's important for us as leaders, it's important for us as parents or grandparents, when we look to the next generation to not see their songs as purely a stylistic change. That is, that is such a huge philosophy, philosophical change, that some of my more cynical, philosophical friends who aren't even Christians would say it's almost a different religion. And I think rightly so.

Warren Smith
Yeah. Well, you mentioned Ben shot so let me let me pause on Ben for just a minute. I think a lot of our our listeners might know Ben, as the keyboard player for Andrew and also he does some production for Andrew as well. Am I Am I right, Keith? Is this the first time Ben has produced an album for you or not?

Keith Getty
Either? Last three occasions over the last three. So out our 2020 album was the Eden song, and you interviewed us, not all of them. So I obviously my fault, I haven't given enough credit because you've you've given all three albums some game time at 2020 was the Eden song, they help people sleep response to the even song. And then 21 We wrote a love letter to Ireland, which was Confessio. And we actually brought Ben across Darlene help us with that. And then 22 was the collection of hems that's come during that whole period. And so Ben's help us with all those records. And he's been just, he is a brilliant guy that there's not many people are that brilliant at music, but you kind of think their knowledge of Scripture, and their integrity is even better. And honestly, I feel that I feel that about about our whole team, you know, and the writer side. And, and we've tried to encourage that at the conference beat the grid at theology, big grid, the arts, be great at your craft, but all of them tend to have a DNA of being excited about family and excited about their local church for oh, it's crazy craziness. And that's, that's hard to get with the creative community a lot of the time.

Warren Smith
Yeah. Well, you know, I've had a similar conversation with Andrew Peterson about Ben. And one of the things that, you know, Andrew will say is that just he's so theologically sound, and he's active in his, you know, local church, who is what he's grounded in, you know, in a local church community as well. And that it is really hard to find guys that really have that musical excellence at a very high level, and also the biblical understanding of that theological understanding and a really high level as well.

Keith Getty
Yeah, no, I think I think that's why the same thing has been a bit of a gathering point for a lot of those guys. Obviously, Andrews, Andrews got a much broader version than we have an unreal, unreal, kind of specializes more on the whole arts, even though he may have written the best church song of the of the last decade. And I'm kind of more just focused in church music, even though our conference involves arts but. But that's been one of the exciting things with people like Ben, all those guys getting together. And honestly, the next generation, you know, Warren, people are saying different things. But the level of musicianship and spiritual mindedness, and groundedness that we're seeing in some of our kids coming through in their 20s gives us extraordinary excitement with the next generation, you know, we live and a singer sing the great commission 2023, we're bringing 100 nations and some of the stories we're hearing of what God is doing in the world, and the people and the quality of the people we're meeting just leaves us extraordinarily excited to be Christians today. I know many people are, seemed to be caught in a what I would call it either either despondency, or a best defensive conservativism. And I don't I don't think there's any need to be that way. I think. I think, you know, in the beginning was the Word and the Word of God. And he's the light and the darkness, coming to overcome the light. And so I'm really excited, really encouraged.

Warren Smith
Yeah, well, you may have already answered the question that I wanted to turn to next, and kind of expand from, you know, your album and what you're doing and talk a little bit more about music generally. And you ports, you've already just mentioned a little bit about that. But you know, we look out in the, you know, sort of the, the evangelical music world generally, and and there's, like you say a lot to like, especially a lot coming out of your efforts in the community around you. But we also see, you know, scandal at Hillsong scandal at Sovereign Grace, and there's just been some problems. Does that cause you any concern? Or what are you? What do you guys do to keep yourselves grounded and focused on the main thing as the main thing?

Keith Getty
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, your job is different to mine. And my job, I never give it a second thought. I mean, I live, I live 12 minutes in the center of Nashville. And I just, I never give it a second thought, it's, it does not enter my reality. The people that we get to work with are inspiring to us and the character that we're seeing, and those guys, it's just, it's just so exciting. And so, you know, a little bit go professional, and I'm focusing on the personal and professional level, we're moving towards this handle on 2025, with crossway, which is very much the handle and worship companion to the ESV. And our whole team are there. There are four areas in particular that we are so lacking, and modern him that he for the health of the modern Christian, that the next two years is just a nonstop creative joy, but emotional slog to try and really work on that. And so our focus is very much on that. And again, the forcing conferences are really covering all the bases. So last year, we just finished the liturgy one next year is the Great Commission, which is more than a lot of global stuff the following year as the Bible with with a lot of the key Bible paraphrases the Bible says and then then in 25, is the hymnal in the Psalter, which is finishing the Psalms. And so those things tell you what we're kind of working on as writers as well. So we're pretty focused on that and the same conference Being able to do that next year, seeing a great commission is three days its own local church, the global church and the future of the church and be able to again, like like Wilberforce and Bach, and all my heroes were the guy and Lewis were the guys who looked forward and said, with confidence in the Gospel moving forward, let's have a fifth. That's an eternal vision first, but let's have a 50 100 150 years and what would make a big impact. Again, so much of what I've seen, of Western conservativism, western church life, even the Reformed Church is so concerned, but conserving that they've conveniently don't have time to face the issues that are actually coming down the pike at us. And so we weren't able to do that and do that with with the confidence that the gospel gives us. In terms of personal I'm a young guy, my oldest kid isn't even a teenager. So I don't I don't feel it that much expertise, but I think a lot of it is spelt Ryan, you know, the the quality of your prayer life, your prayer life with your wife, your marriage. And you know, I do believe this, I do believe two things. I do believe that if I'm not singing, and reading the Bible, and praying with my kids every day, I have no business. I have no business, being in a church platform on a Sunday morning or reading hymns for the church. And secondly, if anybody was to pray for us, I would I would ask that they prayed a lot harder for the mission, we have two mission fields to work with. One is for girls. And the other one is the global church. And I'd be much more concerned that I'm faithful with the four girls because if I am however they turn out, then I believe the work we do for the global church will by its nature, by the very essence of what it is, be be more authentic and more effective.

Warren Smith
Yeah, well, I'm so excited about that hymnal coming out because I just love I love him those generally. And of course, I've been to your home and I know you've got a bookshelf full of hymnals,

Keith Getty
almost 1000 Different hymnals here.

Warren Smith
And you know to have a new hymnal, one that is, you know, that has been really poured over in really thought through rather than just simply, you know, the most popular song that happened to be on the radio last week or last month, but one that has really kind of stood the test of time. That is so exciting. And of course, the same conferences, as you've mentioned, are, you know, taking their interim steps towards that 2025 release day? So walk me through a little bit more about what that process looks like. I mean, I'm guessing that if you're putting together a hymnal in 2025, you already know what some of the songs are, you started to identify holes that you need to write for or look for, is that right? What's that going to look like over the next three years?

Keith Getty
That's exactly right. We're trying to give a worship and companion for the English language primarily, and then going to translate it where it is helpful to the global church. And as obviously, the partnership with crossway is very deliberate, because it allows her two organizations to overlap and in strategic ways. And it's like you say, it's what we want is, I mean, put it like this, it's an expanded version of Kristen and I know the Hammonds we want our girls to know our church. When our church about 10 years ago, back then, but 5060 hymns, it's not just over 100 hymns that our church do, that they want our church to know, our youth pastor in our church has, here's the 50 hymns, I want these kids to know, by the time they leave me for college, because it is part of our spiritual health is to is what we sing to the Lord. And so we want to be able to give up to 500 hymns that we think Island hymns and psalms that we think, obviously covers all the Psalms, but we want 500 pieces that that we think can really help churches all over the West that we stand behind most of them. Most of them were written between the first and 20th centuries. But there are them that are then a group that are written in our century and our century, obviously, will be the most popular century because that's the nature of being created in God's image we want to create each generation creates a new thing, Warren Smith, despite all has been written is continuing to write more stuff, and his son will continue to make movies and the next generation will keep going on. That's just part of the game. That's part of what it is we made in God's image. I think the two things we're trying to add to the book are number one, really outstanding hymns, very few of them ever come. But when we a few times, we stumbled over them. So we're trying to write some but then there are four categories that I would say that I would say really are need to be looked at at the minute one is one is the singing of the Psalms, because that is the Bible song book. That is what Jesus used as his hymn book that is singing scripture itself. That is what the Bible said is the songbook so let's start there. And secondly, is when we want to look at take the historic liturgies of the Christian church because those have actually helped set up the balance and help shape the Christian life and what the gospel is for people. And actually make sure we're well covered and all these things, especially around things looks in especially around things like prayer, those things are lacking. The third area is we are at a really interesting point in history. While we don't want to lean on certain parts of our Christian history or colonial past, the English language has given us extraordinary hymns, extraordinary poetry by the finest poets, so many of the humans that you like, for example, most sacred have super wounded or a mighty fortress is our God or 100, the art or praise to the Lord Almighty, the king of creation, these These were, these were never written in English, but they portray is so extraordinary because people like Robert bridges, who was a poet laureate to George the fifth, who would have been Elizabeth, the second great uncle. But it was was it was a passionate Bible believer. And so the finest port in England was creating these poems. You know, you think of something that God moves in a mysterious way. Well, that's, that's part of ordinary parlance, that's part of common parlance, that's part of culture. Why is that? Because William Cooper wrote a hymn. When was the last time you heard that? So I'm in church, I bet it was a long time. Yeah, you know, so we, we want to look at some of the best the very best poetry and say, can we recover that with beautiful melody. And then the fourth thing is, there's what you just call a number of really uncool subjects, they usually they usually lend to the mysterious side of God, the more sinful part of our nature. And we're evangelicals have to think about others not themselves. And those are those three areas are mysteriously lacking in our song culture. So Psalms liturgies, rescuing some of the best poetry, and then taking that we call it we call it the uncool club of subjects. We got to be able to allow, those are the front things we're really trying to write deliberately into to help our churches.

Warren Smith
Yeah, well, God bless you in that effort. I can't wait. I gotta tell you, I'm excited about it coming out, and I guess I will have to wait three years, but whatever, I can do that, I guess, if the Lord terrorists, but hey, Keith, you know, we need to bring our conversation to a close, but I can't resist asking you because, you know, just because of who you are, and your background, and so on. Any recollections or thoughts about Queen Elizabeth who recently passed away? Can you just point of personal privilege here? Can you just tell me what's on your mind and what was on your mind during what ended up being sort of a global celebration of her life? Even in the secular world? What were you thinking,

Keith Getty
the entire time I spent one to one with Queen Elizabeth, the second probably is less than five minutes might only have been might be less than four minutes. So I obviously met that one occasion, way back. And I actually waited a year to get the award, I had to wait because I was determined that I would get the award from her. I didn't want to get it from the other Royals, because I just I was always such a fanatical fan. I said, I find out about it. The day after sing it happened the day after saying I was with three friends sitting over the fire in our house here. And they all had actually, interestingly, we're all Brits in it all the way over for singing, it all spent time with her. Ross Wilson, the artist is the painter for King Charles, the current king, James ENSCO, who runs our foundation used to be the CEO of Royal Albert Hall, which is kind of this kind of the royal family's local pub, so to speak. Sure. And then John Kirkpatrick was the audit of the Presbyterian Church. So it ultimately, it was interesting, just the consistency with which everyone talks about her but I would say if you're talking about what do we learn about leadership life from the Lord from Queen Elizabeth, the three things that I have distilled more than anything else are number one, and above everything else, you know, the long service in the one direction, you're gonna mean that she she gave her life have however long or short, and a long service in the one direction, finish as well. So that is the main point, about 2001. There was a shift in her philosophy, which kind of said, she basically nobody quite knows how it happened, obviously a very private but she decided to become much more outspoken about her Christian faith, and she would make like a Queen's speech one year. Let me just find it. She in the Queen's speech, we're sitting watching it eating our eating our Christmas dinner, and she goes a little near the end of it, she goes a little we are capable of grit acts of kindness. History teaches us that we sometimes need saving from ourselves from our recklessness on our grade. God sent into the world a unique person, neither a philosopher nor a general important though they are but a savior with the power to forgive. Quickly, he comes out with us. You know, I think the second thing I would say is she was a liturgical person. She was a she had Christian rhythm. She believed the Bible is living the prayer but but the most amazing thing was, she preferred by Omar Al Roman Scotland and her local church that was Presbyterian Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian, ironically, for the head of the Anglican Church, but she went, the pastor there said she missed church twice in the last two decades. Now. First of all, she was 75. They might Six in the last few decades. Second of all, she might be one of the most under pressure people in the world between wars and diseases, and family breakdown and media pressure, and chaos all around her, she must church twice, and that there's a liturgical rhythm to that kind of life that I think is extraordinary. And the third thing I would say, as a leader, as people kind of paint her as being so good, because she was so consistent with all around giveaway, you know, when Britain was losing its empire, when the world was going to paces when her family were messing up. And no matter what it was, she stayed consistent. And, and that is, that is remarkable. But I think as a leader, she actually proper conservative leaders should be visionary leaders. And I think that's what we're missing in the conservative church at the moment. That's what the Reformed Church is missing really badly. They think, to be a leader is to be more signed than the next guy, or to make an order to make a kind of an academic analysis, and they don't have enough vision for the next 50 and 100 years. Her two closest Christian confidants were actually John Stott, and Billy Graham, which is a pretty good start. Her first of her 14 Prime Minister's was once your Winston Churchill. Now, Churchill for all this craziness, and he was crazy. Still, when you look at his vision for the universe, and going forward, he makes modern leaders look like pygmies, you know, and so she was around great leaders all her life, she surrounded herself with them. But she took me if you want to give me an example of Christianity, but even given the example of the Commonwealth, so she had to basically set under in history, the basically the D colonialization of the world. You know, that's what happened. And she had the vision to say, if I can go to these countries, and I can shake their hands, and I can meet their leaders and listen to their hurt. And say, sorry, an apology was brilliant at saying sorry, almost to a fault. She actually was able to build us Commonwealth of Nations, this kind of alliance of countries who share common systems of education and health care and culture, and actually build relationships where most, most colonialization reaction has been a negative thing in the last century, and some has been for Britain, but largely, she has kept the Commonwealth together as functioning countries, even though they're all independent. So she had an 100 year vision, as well as just being this kind of, you know, stripped list oldest child Oh, is that the right thing? So that that'd be the three things I'd say Christianity, growing old and growing better. That kind of a liturgical life and a conservative ism that actually was visionary.

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