Stolen seasons

MARY REICHARD, HOST: Hello, and thank you for joining us for a special edition of The World and Everything in It. I’m Mary Reichard.

I’m joined today by Payton McNabb. She’s a young woman from North Carolina who’s become a national figure since 2022. That’s when she was hit by a volleyball spiked by a male playing on the opposition’s girls’ team. She was knocked unconscious and suffered multiple injuries including partial paralysis and a brain bleed.

She’s now an ambassador for Independent Women, an organization focused on public policy for women. Payton joins us now to talk about her story and why she wants to make sure other girls and women don’t endure the same indignity.

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REICHARD: You went through the horrors of the physical dangers of men in women's sports, but there is a mental side to it as well. Describe for us, the mental effects of knowing you're going up against a male.

PAYTON MCNABB: I was terrified. I tried to play it cool, because I have younger girls looking up to me, and we need to just finish the game like, I don't even care about the score. We just have to get it over with. And I was scared because I didn't, I didn't want to get hurt, and I didn't want them to hit me or whatever. And in the end, I'm, I feel like it was better that it happened to me, rather than a little freshman girl or my cousins on the team. If it would have happened to them, I would have been so much more mad. And I felt like this is not real. How is this happening to me? How is this allowed? 

There was a point in my life where I didn't think this would ever be allowed, that a guy could be on the other side of the court. And I never thought that the adults would allow that to happen. Like the people that have been elected to protect me are simply looking away, because they don't want to get an uncomfortable conversation. And they're putting me at risk because they don't want to hurt this guy's feelings. How is that real?

REICHARD: Exactly. Now, you were in three different sports in high school, right? Volleyball, softball and…?

MCNABB: Basketball.

REICHARD: Basketball. I assume your dreams of playing any of those sports in college were ended with the injuries you received.

MCNABB: It was, yeah. I wasn't gonna be like a college volleyball player whatsoever. I was gonna play college softball. But of course, that got taken away because I couldn't perform to my highest ability anymore because of the volleyball season, which was two seasons before the softball.

REICHARD: You've called the adults around this whole issue “enablers,” people who let girls get hurt, get their trophies and their accolades stolen from them. And I'm so sorry that girls have been put in the position of defending themselves from this newly asserted, you know, right, that nobody ever heard of before. So what does Payton McNabb say, that schools and athletic associations and such need to do differently now?

MCNABB: I think it's way past time to be able to say what you truly believe and be able to stand up for these girls who, you know, they're very vulnerable, they're young kids, and they're being put in these insane positions that most adults haven't even been put in. So I think it's far past time, you know, in the excuse that you're afraid to speak up because you could lose your job or you could lose friends. That's been overly used. That doesn't really work for me anymore. I used to have a little bit sympathy towards that, but it's like the amount of people that have spoken up and lost way greater things, and they still were willing to say what was right? It's way past time. 

These girls deserve better, and for all the women before us, who have fought for us to even get here, and now we're simply regressing back, because people can't understand. I'm always saying it's basic biology, it's basic knowledge. Because it really is, and there's really no other way to put it. And I don't understand. Why me? I'm 20 years old, have to sit in front of congressional hearings and explain that there's a biological difference between a man and a woman. Why am I having to do that? You were grown and you were a policy maker, and you're in this position that you were elected to be in to protect me, and you're not doing it. So I shouldn't even be put in this position, but I shouldn't have to be explaining that a man is stronger than a woman.

REICHARD: Even if the Supreme Court rules that states can protect women's sports, it doesn't mean that they will. Why do you think this is so pervasive and something so many people are doubling down on, even though we know the majority of Americans are opposed to men in women's sports?

MCNABB: I think that's very, very good point that you just made, especially that this is just if they can. This isn't even if they have to, which is really the important part here. There's been 27 states that have chosen to protect their girls and their sports, and now this is ultimately going to decide on if they can even do that. There are so many people opposing this, and the majority of America agrees that a man is different than a woman, and they're just completely tired of seeing all this. 

And at first it seemed like so overwhelmingly on the other side, just because they're the loudest. But now, our side has grown so much, and it's gotten so big, because people are just like, how is this still going on? If you would have said that this is where we would be 10 years ago, everyone would have laughed in your face, like, why would the Supreme Court have to rule on if biological sex is real? It's really completely frustrating that we're even having to get to this point. But you also just have to be thankful that you are at this point, and you are at the highest court in the land who is taking on your issue. And that just shows how important it really is, or they wouldn't have taken it on. 

So I think we've made enough noise that they're finally going to talk about it and listen to us and hear us out. And I'm hoping that we have a Supreme Court that understands that there's a biological difference between a man and a woman. I mean, if you don't, that makes the Supreme Court lose all of its credibility. Because if you can't answer a basic fact, like a basic biological fact that has been a fact since the beginning of time, since Adam and Eve, then how are you going to make any more decisions for us? You're supposed to be the court that always chooses facts over feelings, and so I guess we'll see if that's still the case.

REICHARD: I mean, Payton, you were a kid when this opinion came out, but pretend that you're talking to Justice Neil Gorsuch. He's the one that wrote the majority opinion equating gender identity with race, and that elevated it to a protected class under the law, and he had a line in that opinion that said, ‘Now this doesn't apply to women's sports,’ but then he went ahead and made gender identity a protected class. So this is getting into the legalities and stuff. If you were to talk to Justice Gorsuch today, what would you say?

MCNABB: Be a real man and understand that that's not true. That is not true. Delusion is not over facts. If you have to hurt someone's feelings to tell them the truth, that's just the way it is. It isn't loving to lie. It shouldn't hurt your image to say what's biologically true, what's just a common fact that we all know. I really don't believe anyone that argues with us, because there's no way that you actually believe that.

REICHARD: You're put here for a reason, is all I can say. Well, it was actually your testimony that helped pass North Carolina's protection for women. What was it called Women's Sports Act? And the governor vetoed it, but the general assembly overrode the veto, if I remember, right? Okay, so what most surprised you speaking before your state's general assembly?

MCNABB: They're all saying, you know, this is making a problem out of nothing. I was there. I'd never spoken out before, and this issue got brought up, and I got to hear the other side's arguments before they even knew I was in there. And they're saying, this just happened to that one girl in western North Carolina, like, way out there, this isn't gonna happen again. That was just one girl. It doesn't matter. Completely downplaying everything that I was going through at the time. And then I got out there and spoke out. And they could not believe that I was there, because I had never said anything before. 

But to me, I'm like, why not be proactive? You shouldn't wait for someone to get personally affected. Like, you should just try to protect them, because that's what you were elected to do. So do your job, and we shouldn't have to fight so hard to override vetoes from our governors. Because this is what was promised that women deserve these equal basic human rights. And if our governors can't see that, like, how are you the governor? How are you the governor of North Carolina if you don't know what a woman is?

REICHARD: What's been the hardest part of speaking out on behalf of girls and women's sports for you?

MCNABB: Well, at first, it was the public speaking. In general, I was never a public speaker. Public speaking was the only class that I had ever failed. It was not my thing at all. So that was really scary for me. I didn't want, like, to sound like a victim, or like I was complaining, because I was never like that either. I wasn't raised that way, to feel sorry for myself whatsoever. I've discovered this confidence about myself, and I know that what I'm standing up for is right, and I'm on the right side of it, and this is so much bigger than me. 

This is for my little sister. And if I get blessed enough to have daughters, like, I don't want them to ever think that a dude could be on the other side of the net. It's definitely been crazy. Like you have the threats. You have all this other stuff, like I can't go to college normally, be with my friends. Because it got so bad I had to move home because people were trying to find me at school. I would love to have a normal experience for once, but it's okay, because I just try to see like, the good in it always. I'm getting to travel the country and speak out for these girls and do so many incredible things. 

So of course, there's so much good in it too, but it was really hard for me to accept that. At first I was like, Lord, could this not have happened to anyone else? But then I'm kind of glad it didn't, because I wouldn't want this to happen to anyone else. So it's a hard thing to accept. But I think I've finally gotten to the place where I'm confident and have accepted that this is my mission now, and I'm going to do it the best I can. 

REICHARD: What does safe and fair look like for women's sports?

MCNABB: So there was once a time in my life where I would have never, ever thought that the administration, the parents, the coaches, the high school athletic association, that they would have let this happen. Like I would have never thought they would allow this to happen. I didn't think that the adults would let me go out there, and there would even be the possibility of a man being on the other side of the net. So that's what it means to me. It means for my sister to have that feeling again, because now she doesn't, she thinks like, you know, there could possibly be a man in a disguise, which is what it is, on the other side of the net that would be allowed. I would be told that I just have to shut up and accept it and be inclusive about it, be nice. Like I'm tired of all that. 

That's not the case anymore. I think majority of America is sick of it. They've been told how to act towards this for years now, and it's just going to the point where that doesn't work anymore. So having that feeling that there's no way anyone would allow that, once we're back there, then they'll know that we won.

REICHARD: Payton McNabb is an Independent Women Sports Ambassador from North Carolina. Payton, thank you so much.

MCNABB: Thank you.

REICHARD: You’ve been listening to an extended interview with women’s sports advocate Payton McNabb. I’m Mary Reichard.

Please, let us know you’re listening. You can email us at editor@wng.org. That’s editor@wng.org. You can also subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast.

We'll talk to you Monday. Have a great weekend!

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