Out of harm’s way

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: Coming up next on The World and Everything in It: Protecting kids online in Canada.

A quick word to parents this story has to do with online exploitation.

NICK EICHER, HOST: Some U.S. states have passed laws requiring so-called “adult” websites to verify the age of users. Rather than comply, many of the operators of those sites have cut off online access in those states and filed lawsuits.

Conservative and Independent lawmakers in Canada have been working on similar age-verification laws nationwide. The Canadian Senate passed a bill last year, and its House of Commons is now reviewing it.

But then yesterday, Liberal Members of Parliament introduced the Online Harms Act. It would set up a regulating body to hold online platforms accountable for harmful content.

BROWN: Same goal, so why the different approaches?

Joining us now to talk about it is Arnold Viersen. He’s a Conservative MP from the province of Alberta.

Arnold, good morning!

ARNOLD VIERSEN: Good morning, and thanks for having me, Myrna.

BROWN: Glad to have you. So we're talking about Bill S-210, the age verification legislation. How would it protect kids online?

VIERSEN: Yes, so this is a bill that was brought in by my colleague, Senator Miville-Dechêne, and it would ensure that platforms that are operating for a commercial purpose are ensuring that kids aren't getting onto their platforms. So it would basically just demand some sort of mechanism of age verification. Now, the bill doesn't lay out what that mechanism is, it just says you have to use one. In Canada, you can gamble online, you can buy alcohol online, you can buy marijuana online, so there's already a number of companies that offer age verification services. And we suspect that these platforms would start to use one of those services.

BROWN: Based on reports from the Canadian media, it sounds like the primary objection to this legislation comes down to data privacy. Here’s Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Thursday responding to comments made by Conservative Opposition Leader, Pierre Poilievre:

TRUDEAU: He's proposing that adults should instead have to give their ID and their personal information to sketchy websites. We think we need to responsibly protect kids, but we need to do it in a way that is acceptable to all Canadians.

Arnold, how would you respond to Trudeau’s argument that this approach is unacceptable for Canada?

VIERSEN: Yeah, I wish that he would read the bill. First of all, the bill doesn't do any of those kinds of things. It ensures that people's age is verified, not that their ID is verified. And that's a clear distinction that I want to make. I always compare this a little bit to like Captcha, which is a human identifier, or a human verifier. It's not identifying you, but it is verifying that you're not a robot, you're a person. We think the same kind of mechanisms or similar mechanisms will be used to identify your age or verify your age, but not identify who you are necessarily.

BROWN: Arnold, you’re not only on the record in support for Bill S-210 to protect kids from internet pornography, you’re also the sponsor of Bill C-270, a proposal to amend Canada’s Criminal Code. What would that legislation do?

VIERSEN: So currently in Canada, it is illegal to post under-aged videos or content, and it's currently illegal to post non-consensual images in Canada. The trouble with our law in Canada is that the police have to prove both of those each time. So they have to prove that the person is underage, they have to prove that they didn't consent, and that's onerous. My bill would make it so that companies that are hosting this kind of content have to maintain a record of both consent and age. And if they fail to keep those records, there would be a criminal code offense associated with failing to keep records. The interesting piece as well with my bill is that it allows for people to revoke their consent. And that's something that survivors of sexual exploitation across the country or from around the world have said, "At some point in my life, I did consent to that video being up, I no longer consent to it being up and I would like to take it down." And this would help them to do that. So if a company fails to remove content, after people say, "Hey, I revoke my consent," they would be found criminally responsible.

BROWN: Interesting feature. The current government has different ideas about protecting kids from online predators. What do we know so far about the Online Harms Act that was introduced yesterday?

VIERSEN: Yeah, so what we know is that we've been waiting a long time for this. So I don't know if your listeners remember, we had an article come out almost three years ago from the New York Times called The Children of Pornhub. And after that came out, the Liberal government of the day said that within three weeks, they were going to have an Online Harms Bill presented. It's been just over three years now, and here we go with their Online Harms Bill. It basically puts in place a regulatory body that will then oversee this. So it's kind of scant on like, what will actually be the impact of it because it puts together a commission and an ombudsman and an office to deal with complaints. And after that, it allows those bodies to set the guidelines going forward. As I always say, the devil's in the details, as they build out this office and commission and ombudsman, we will then get to see what the regulations actually are.

BROWN: What do you see as the fundamental differences in how Liberals and Conservatives are seeking to protect kids from pornography…based on these bills?

VIERSEN: Probably the fundamental differences is that conservatives believe that there is evil in the world and that and that our children need to be protected from that. That's fundamentally that difference, understanding that evil exists or that everyone’s just misunderstood. That’s the kind of the binaries between the liberals and conservatives.

BROWN: Arnold, is there any aspect of this story that you think warrants more attention?

VIERSEN: I'm excited that all of it's getting the attention that it's getting. I would point out that the UK kind of started this back in 2007. When I got elected in 2015, I put a motion on the House of Commons floor to study the impacts on pornography. The last time anybody had studied is before I was born. But just watching this slowly build as we see several—I think it's up to six—American states now have brought in some sort of age verification. The thing that I think most people need to know is that there's broad consensus for tackling this issue.

BROWN: Arnold Viersen is a Member of Parliament for Peace River and Westlock in Alberta, Canada. Arnold, thank you for your time and your service!

VIERSEN: No problem at all, Myrna. Thanks for having me.

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