Marjorie Dannenfelser: the future of pro-life politics

ANNA JOHANSEN BROWN, HOST: It’s Saturday, June 24th, 2023. You’re listening to the weekend edition of The World and Everything In It. Good morning, I’m Anna Johansen Brown.

PAUL BUTLER, HOST:  And I’m Paul Butler. Up next … looking to the future of pro-life politics.

On Friday, one of our Washington Bureau reporters sat down with a pro-life leader who has her thumb on the pulse of the movement after Dobbs. Marjorie Dannenfelser is the president of Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America. It’s a group that endorses and financially backs pro-life political candidates. The organization’s advocacy played a key role in getting leaders in place who could overturn Roe v. Wade. The question now is … what’s next?

Here’s Leo Briceno with the interview.

LEO BRICENO, REPORTER: Well, first of all, I mean, just on the part of WORLD, just in general, I want to say thank you. I mean, a lot of our listeners, I think, look to specific members in Congress or specific members, figures in in, there's legislators at the state level to, you know, direct the policy side of stuff. Now, of course, that's all well and good. But really, I think you're the champion as far as messaging goes, for the last right however many years. And so thank you on behalf of our listeners,

MARJORIE DANNENFELSER, GUEST: Well, I appreciate that. I would say that. Something that we believe was really important couple of decades back was to flex the very strong arm of the pro life movement in politics. Look, if you break it down. If your goal is to get to the starting line, you have to overturn Roe vs. Wade, because it struck down every single law in the nation. There is no way to make any gains in terms of protecting children in the law. So say that's the case. Okay, well, what do you have to do? You have to have enough Supreme Court Justice is to listen to a case to overturn it. How do you get that? You've got to have a Senate and a president that will nominate and confirm those judges. And so how do you do that? You have to have a really strong pro life movement that, that exact commitments from those senators from that President, that we believe in hope that are already pro life, but, but they need accountability from the movement that helped elect them. And, and so if you break it down, it really is the only route is through politics. And that's the only way to do those things I've just described. Of course, what comes before that is the organic, true faithful pro life movement that is believed, marched, prayed, cajoled, never gave up. Never went away, because they knew when No, that is the human rights battle of our time,

BRICENO: Right. 50 years in the making. That's right. I gotta ask, Are you busier now than you were a year ago or have things slowed down at all?

DANNENFELSER: We're always busy, because in our office, every thing that has led to this has been a really urgent moment. Like I just said, like the electing of a Senate, the electing of a president. We're all in, we're passionate. We're doing everything we can. And there are a lot of details. It's a mammoth task to do anything like that. But having said that, now, yes, we we had one major front to achieve that. And that was really on the federal level, so that the door could be open for states to do what they should, what their responsibility is, in terms of saving lives and serving women. Now we have 50 state fronts, and one federal front, not just one federal front. So we've got every legislature, that's what's free. Now, democracy is free to flourish in all of those legislatures and including the Congress. And everybody who elected each of those legislators, every voter that had an impact on electing this Congress has to be ignited and encouraged, galvanized, like know what the future looks like know what's at stake. One thing I can say is, it's very clear now that what we always knew was at stake was that actual human beings would be saved, and that mothers would be served. And in literally one year, almost half the nation has passed strong pro life protections that have produced what we and the left evaluate is 60,000 children that will be born instead of dying. And that is real. And if it were one person, it would be worth it. But 60,000 is a medium size, beautiful town. It's family trees. So yes, busy on all those fronts, but every single one of them has fruits.

BRICENO: I was about to say that definitely sounds like busy. Yeah, that's not their practice. I don't know what that looks like. But yeah, that sounds like busy. You've mentioned the Senate a couple of times. And I was really interested to hear that in a conversation with the Washington Post right after Dobbs had occurred, you mentioned the Senate several times, and specifically the Judiciary Committee as a moment where the pro life movement took a step forward in the right direction. It's been a year since Dobbs, are there any specific concrete steps in the right direction that you would compare to one of those victories like gaining a majority in the Senate, getting majority in a subcommittee, confirmation of a judge?

DANNENFELSER: I think the next big victory that we are the we are defining success about is is the winning of the presidency. Because who wins the President will be the first Dobbs complete, Dobbs era President Dobbs came, and then this president what adopts to produce it, it produce a mandate to poor springtime of life in this country and a moment where we truly serve women's needs, given the root causes of why they feel the need to abort, or will it be a president and a Senate and Congress in general that wants to obliterate every single pro life protection that has been passed in the in the states in this past year? And that really is the choice that is what the other side wants? They they've made it very clear, they don't see the abortion as a moral choice at all. They see it as as a health unnecessary aspect of maintaining your health is having an abortion like an appendectomy. And so they're all in they've got more money than we do. They want to have abortion, they've made it clear that they will eliminate the filibuster so that they can pass a law called the women called the Women's Health Protection Act, that would indeed, obliterate all the laws that we pass so far, no new children would be saved, no women will be served. And that's not true that women wouldn't be served, because pregnancy center movement will always flourish. But it means that those labs saved or not secure. So that presidency, that is the next inflection point. But I'll have to say, given what you asked me a minute ago, like how many about how many fronts there are, we have to also be vigilant on on the state states where we've made gains, there are ballot initiatives in nine states where we've made these gains. And, and those ballot initiatives target is state constitutions where they want to put the so called right to abortion, and those state constitutions, which means everything that we just did, would also get obliterated. So it is the contrast has never been more clear about what each side wants and what the consequences are.

BRICENO: So in a sense to and you mentioned the presidency, this will be the first time really that the overturn of Roe will be a factor in deciding who becomes the next president of the United States.

DANNENFELSER: Exactly. That's right. And, you know, governors have done a beautiful job in the in the midterm elections. Not one of them lost. And so many of them, think Keml, think DeSantis, Reynolds, so many governors in the country, who were very strong and signed into law, really strong pro life measures—they all won by big numbers. But our federal candidates, the ones who were being elected to the Senate and the House, by and large, they received advice, and they took it to try to ignore the issue, basically bury it and hope it would go away. Meanwhile, the Democrats were completely armed, as ours were unarmed. And they just went ballistic on our candidates and saying they want to put women in jail, they won't, women will die because of this, you know, basically painting the picture of our candidates on the federal level. There with With few exceptions, JD Vance, Rubio, Ted Budd and a few others, they did it they did a very, very good job. But by and large, they failed. And it was a failure of Republican leadership in terms of figuring out the plan. And and the plan cannot be the ostrich strategy where you just bury your head in the sand and hope it goes away.

BRICENO: Is that what you perceive as the failure here?

DANNENFELSER: Yeah, I do the midterms that was the failure. Because the big The alternative would have been to stake out the contrast between our candidates and theirs. That contrast was basically build a consensus position. If you think 15 weeks is the Lindsey Graham bill. 15 weeks is so not even close to where we want to be. But when you include California and Illinois and New York in the Congress, you're looking for the best that you can. So say we say our candidates are all for the 15 week limit, we’re like this is where we think we should be right now. And a contrast is an unlimited abortion up until the end, paid for by taxpayers, we won't even save babies who are born alive in botched abortions. That is a 10% issue. That's a tiny crowd of people standing together in terms of who supports it. That's the Democrat position. The Republican position is a 70% position, which is takes into into consideration pro choice people, Democrats, women, Republicans, independents, and it's a 72% position, or almost every poll that polls, it's around there 70, 72, as high as 77. That's a really popular position almost never found in politics. And yet they left that contrast on the table. They left those voters on the table that would have been motivated by that because they cared about this.

BRICENO: Right? Well, I mean, the number that that I hear anyway, me being kind of on Twitter almost constantly—

DANNENFELSER: I’m so sorry. But I understand.

BRICENO: —Yeah, I hear the other one, which is the with the Pew Research Center, 61% of Americans, right? How do I know you're working with a limited sample size? Given that we've only seen the midterms, really and we'll get more data on how candidates respond to this down the road. But how do candidates respond to that number initially, when when they're trying to judge? Okay, just how important is this issue to voters? And do I have a fighting chance of actually support pro life as as an idea beyond just the policy?

DANNENFELSER: Well, I think you have to support a specific policy. I think that's the thing. It's not enough to just say I'm pro life. People attach all kinds of misnomers to that To the concept pro life, there are pro choice people that would accept a policy of even six week 12 week limit. So it's important to specifically say what your policy idea is, as opposed to what their policy ideas. Now it's good, you must. I mean, I think once you do that it is important to go into the whys. The whys matter, the whys or how we actually reach hearts and minds. But we're already at a consensus point, we don't even have to build consensus on what I've just explained about that contrast between the 10 and the 70%. Unlimited abortion 10%. Define your opponent, because it is true that that's what he wants, and then state your own 70% position, which is a 15 week limit. And of course, you want to save every child, but this is where we can start. This is where America is. So the polls that I think you're referring to generally have to are about Roe v. Wade, which people don't understand. They they thought that it meant legal abortion, but what does legal abortion mean? Most people never realize because it was never a focus in the public eye. That was basically abortion in the first trimester, which was protected. But that is but and that literally is not true. Roe and its companion decision. Doe v. Bolton allowed abortion up into the end, And so that what really matters is the question asked, and that leads to what you the questions that you think are in the minds of voters, if you know that they are already you're a pro choice Democrat, but you're really don't accept abortion in the first trimester up to 12 weeks. And you say, Look, we can agree on that. I want to protect every child. But can we at least agree on that, then that is how you build a winning coalition. That means that you're winning and the other side is losing when they're at the 10%.

BRICENO: Again, working with a small sample size here. But does it surprise you at all the reluctance for many of these Republican candidates, having so strongly affirmed their devotion to pro life in the past, to really articulate and to put into a commitment, what they want to see at the policy level? I'm thinking of people like Blake Masters, for instance, Arizona last year who had prolife written all over his website and then suddenly didn’t.

DANNENFELSER: Yeah. Well, what surprised me is, you know, despite all of our efforts, which were to brief, every single candidate, every single party committee, every single person who has influence over candidates and the kid, the candidates themselves, that they were still not prepared for the tsunami that they underestimated. And so I was a little surprised, because I thought that there was they, they had the information and, and when you have a conversation with him, they're like, Well, yeah, absolutely. You know, you know, but But when the time comes, it's harder than what you have stored up in your head. So I think what happened with and also I think the big failing, the biggest failing, was on the part of Republican leadership in the House and the Senate, those party committees that are in charge of helping candidates with a strategy, given the principles that the Republican Party and these candidates have, how are we going to deal with this? How are we going to communicate it? Where's the love and compassion and the justice? That didn't happen. Didn't happen on the House side, it didn't happen on the Senate side. I know, because I was there. It didn't happen. So it was pretty much left to their own devices. The only advice they were told was, don't talk about it. Stay far away from this issue, which is the worst advice you could possibly give? Because it means the entire definition, all the messaging is left to your opponent, and you've got none.

BRICENO: What did it look for? For them? You described them as unprepared? What does that mean? Was it looked like they just not have talking points on the issue did they were they just not prepared to discuss the specific policy type?

DANNENFELSER: Some of them were told to say, and they just accepted it without even thinking about the consequences: “You know, it's back to the States, I don't have a job to do,” which is simply not true. Many of them had voted for a 20 week limit many times. And, and many of them didn't even hold that opinion. It was just sort of a stopgap like, it's not even my job. Let's talk about inflation. So that's the way it looks in several campaigns. it's not good enough to just say, I'm pro life. Now let's talk about inflation. Because people don't know what that means. People deserve to hear what your actual position is, as opposed to your opponent. And and that just wasn't happening. So it also looked like you say abortion essay inflation, you don't even answer the question. They say, people don't even care about that. That was another answer. Nobody really cares about they care about jobs in the economy. They care about inflation. Not true. You point to polls that say what people are saying about what they what they think. But that but that changes in a minute. And it also, why do you need a poll to figure out that you need to communicate something that's the most important human rights turnaround in our time. Be prepared.

So I think what's happened over time is it's gotten to politically nuanced by a group of people, namely high level Republicans, that it's been an issue that has helped them. And they were happy with it, because they can manage it. Now that Roe is overturned, and there was a consequence of your actions. All of a sudden, you really can't, you know, it's not useful or easy. And so that was that's why I was treated like the third rail. But if it happens again, it will have the same will have the same week results in November of 2024. The one thing I would just say, though, is that is that I keep raising this there are two factors that should be considered. One is the vociferous ambition of the left and wanting to pass a law that will obliterate all protections, and this is they're very clear about it. They are on the offense, they're excited and they're moneyed. And you just let that go on answered you will definitely abortion will absolutely help you lose your campaign. And the other thing to consider is how the governors behaved. The governors who are vested in the passing of a law and laws in their own states who are all in they were in there. We're not just waiting to sign there. We're advocating none of them last night they said could live a consumption they send heartbeat they sent 12 weeks they signed 15, they sound all sorts of things, not one of them lost. And so there's a story to be told there. And it's about, you know, communicating being bold and providing a contrast.

BRICENO: So you're spoken to I think most if not all other Republican candidates, actually one just announced yesterday. Right. So maybe have you I don't know if you've had contact with him yet. How are they talking about this issue?

DANNENFELSER: Well, you're talking about presidential candidates. Yeah, I have talked to all of them. I know them all. Unless there's something in their complaint. Oh, there might be one I'm not aware of that. I don't know. But the ones who everyone knows, I know. And I've got a and we have a good long standing relationship with with my with all of them. But I would say today is a really important day because I think today is with the just on the cusp of the anniversary of jobs. Some of them are finding their voices. Mike Pence never lost his voice. He's always known as voice he's always known when he's thought he's communicated beautifully today, that's no change. And he is far and away the movement. Article articulation and embodiment of what what you ought to be as a pro life candidate in terms of communication and heart, And then there's Trump who's figuring it out. There's the Santas, he's figuring out, Tim Scott, today was communicating very clearly, for the first time the support for a 15 week limit. I just, ah, Asa Hutchinson, the same, he would support that same bill, Nikki Haley, unclear about what she would advocate for. But when one distinction that we ought to all be looking at is, a lot of times people get asked a question these candidates get asked the question, what would you sign? Well, that's one test. But signing a bill is not advancing a bill, advancing a policy advancing a worldview of vision about what you think ought to be happening. You shape that through the presidency, you you help shape polls, the will of the people the opinion, is a beautiful place, that bully pulpit to form opinion. So it's not just Will you sign it is what will you do? How, what will you do to advance this? Cause? Nobody ever said to Reagan, you know, will you just stand there and get a photo shoot in front of the Berlin Wall? No, he made he worked and formed that along with Margaret Thatcher and the Pope and many others to get to that place. And he demanded, you tear down this wall. It's the same for the pro life issue and what we need and when we should be expecting in a national poll, I feel here.

BRICENO: So is the President really still the biggest key to defending pro life because you got three parts of this legislative making process, which is the House of Representatives, United States Senate and the presidency?

DANNENFELSER: The House and Senate will always be vital and those leaders there will always be necessary. thank Henry Hyde, the author of The Hyde Amendment that everybody knows he formed that and when he he helped that, but the The biggest bully pulpit the biggest and most important place to form public opinion, is who sits in the Oval Office. And so somebody who aspires to that Oval Office better have a really clear idea, or they should not expect the help of the pro life movement. And if they can't expect the help of the pro life movement, they should think again about running, because it is very hard to win without the help of the pro life movement. So yes, the presidency is very important. And without a really strong president that you already know is going to advance something, there's the negative of him not being there, and that is Biden or whoever else is the Democratic presidential nominee. And that person is going to sign a bill into law that obliterates every single pro life protection in the country, because they will absolutely take. Senate, Senate Democrats have already said they're ready to do away with the filibuster. And so all it would take as a majority vote in the House and the Senate and a President to sign and they're no baby saved, not 60,000, not one, because of a pro life legal protection.

BRICENO: Just to wrap up here, say that this issue doesn't get resolved for the next 50 years, that we're still talking about this and struggling over this as an ideological concept as an ethical concept, as a nation in the next 50 years. What would you say to the next generation of pro life advocates? If that pew research center number right of 61% becomes 82% becomes higher? If this does end up looking like a losing issue? way on down the road? What what is your message to the pro life movement that?

DANNENFELSER: Well, you know, the message of John the Baptist is a voice crying out in the wilderness. In that case, John, the Baptist voice was stronger than any other regardless of the numbers. You may not be on the side of the polls, though I believe we are now and we've gained you may not be on this side of the polls, but you will always be sitting in this sweet space of what is true and is right and where the light comes from. And you'll always be able to deliver something beautiful and compassionate to women who are truly in need. Need concretely, regardless of laws which you must pass, because justice has to be mercy also has to be, in justice for for the women who are finding themselves in a desperate situation drawn to the door of an abortion clinic. And we have to have a theory of our case. And our case is that your that aborting, the child is not going to solve your problems. And in fact, it will compound them and it'll be another layer of darkness on the on the suffering that you already are—So we want to come around you, if you're in a cycle of poverty of homelessness, you've already got kids and you don't have childcare if you are in abusive relationships and you need a way out 70% of women cite coercion as a reason they afford that, that programs that we are we are leading through 3000 crisis pregnancy centers that are they're all there to surround her all there for the beautiful answer, which is very different from Planned Parenthood, which is not a problem. We got the we got the pill, we got the surgery. Forget all that other stuff. If you're trafficked, whatever doesn't matter, you just go back out and you'll be fine. So I think I would say to that next generation, always pay attention to both serving women and saving lives in the law. And, and I actually believe that we don't have to worry about diminishing returns. I think we are on the right road.

BRICENO: Marjorie, thank you so much for your time. I know incredibly busy season for you. And I'm sure that busyness is probably going to stick around for a time longer, but we appreciate your thoughts.

DANNENFELSER: It's a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

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