Defending the first freedom

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MYRNA BROWN, HOST: Coming up next on The World and Everything in It: 

Faith under fire.

Last week, USCIRF—the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom—sent the State Department its annual report. Included are recommendations for fighting the persecution of religious groups worldwide.

MARY REICHARD, HOST: That government organization compiles lists of countries that commit or tolerate violations of religious freedom, and encourages the State Department to call attention to them.

Washington Producer Harrison Watters looked into the report and has this story.

HARRISON WATTERS: The report paints a concerning picture of religious freedom worldwide.

It highlights the Trump Administration’s October designation of Nigeria as a country of particular concern…since the government there failed to protect Christians from Islamist attacks. The State Department now designates 13 countries of particular concern—the highest on record.

But USCIRF is recommending the State Department call out several additional countries.

HARTZLER: You have around 380 million Christians are living in countries where they cannot openly live out their faith.

Vicky Hartzler chairs the USCIRF board of Commissioners and recommends designating 18 Countries of Particular Concern. That’s up two from last year’s recommendations, and a new high.

HARTZLER: We added this time and are recommending both Syria and Libya be added to the worst offenders group.

Last year, the Trump administration softened some sanctions on Syria and its new leaders following the fall of the Assad regime in 2024. 

But Hartzler says Syria does not have a clean slate.

HARTZLER: …the new transitional government has not adequately prevented or curbed or administered justice for multiple killings, kidnappings and egregious acts of violence against religious minorities that have happened this year.

In Libya, the fragmented government is arresting Christians for their faith and evangelism, with eleven sentenced to prison last Spring.

USCIRF also keeps a special watch list of countries the State Department should keep an eye on. That list includes America’s NATO-ally Turkey.

HARTZLER: It is ongoing and it is systematic, the restrictions that they're putting on minority faiths there. If you're not Sunni Muslim, then you're getting some government restrictions.

Christians in Turkey have for decades been forbidden to run seminaries or Christian education, so many churches rely on foreign missionaries and pastors for discipleship. 

But that’s getting harder. Since 2019, at least 375 Christian workers and their families who left Turkey on sabbatical or vacation could not return.

HARTZLER: They get to the airport, and all of a sudden there's a designation on their visa, an immigration code that lists them as a national security threat, and they're barred from coming back into the country.

Hartzler says American law requires diplomats to consider religious freedom on the same level as economic and military issues when they negotiate with foreign leaders. 

She uses Turkey’s president Recep Erdoğan as an example:

HARTZLER: These world leaders, including Erdogan, you know, wants to discuss with us about military hardware. We have this opportunity to bring up these religious freedom issues and to advocate for those who are being persecuted.

USCIRF advocates for people of all religions or no religion who face persecution at the hands of governments and extremist groups. Hartzler says Christians especially have a role to play in praying for the persecuted.

HARTZLER: I think of Hebrews 13:3 that says, "Remember those who are in prison as if you were their fellow prisoner, and those who are suffering as if you were mistreated." So it is our charge, we are charged to do this and it's a privilege to do this. 

She says that’s a unique opportunity for Americans—to make a difference through both prayer and policy.

Reporting for WORLD, I’m Harrison Watters.

BROWN: And now we want to bring in our producer, Lindsay Mast, who has more on the state of religious freedom around the world. 

Good morning, Lindsay.

MAST: Good morning Myrna, good morning Mary.

I wanted to find out more about some of the most pressing situations, so I reached out to Knox Thames. He spent 20 years in diplomatic roles with the U.S. government, working to advance religious freedom. He will soon become the Executive Director at the new Center for Global and Religious Freedom at Dallas Baptist University. 

Knox, good morning.

KNOX THAMES: Good morning.

MAST: Let's start with Nigeria. It was designated a country of particular concern several months ago now. 

Where do things stand? What's changed, and what are you still looking for?

THAMES: I was just talking with a pastor from Nigeria about what's been the impact of the CPC designation by President Trump, and he said it's been, it's been good, and it's also created some problems. 

On the good side, it's forced the Nigerian government to acknowledge a problem that they didn't want to. They've always said that this isn't a religious conflict, but now they've admitted that there's a religious element to this. They've started to work and partner with the U.S. government on ways to engage these terrorists that are victimizing Christians and others. 

But on the other side, it's made it a little bit more complicated, because it's it's created divisions in the community, where now it's seen as Muslims versus Christians, and not a problem that's facing all Nigerians. 

It's going to take a long term investment on the ground to solve these ethnic and religious conflicts that have go back decades, if not centuries, and we need more than just a designation.

MAST: Well, Iran is top of mind, of course, right now. What are your concerns there?

THAMES: Iran has been one of the global leaders in persecuting Christians, Bahá'ís, and really anyone who challenges the rule and the theology of the clerics. Unfortunately, no administration, Republican or Democratic has ever wanted to bring issues of religious persecution into the high stakes negotiations with Tehran. So far, I'm seeing that same reluctance with the Trump administration. 

But if we're going to make sure that Iran doesn't start to look like Iraq, where our engagement led to the depopulation of historic Christian communities and other faith groups, this needs to be put on the top of the action list for policymakers. And if we choose not to, then these historic Christian, Baha'i communities, and new evangelical communities will certainly suffer.

MAST: Well, speaking of global leaders and religious persecution, I want to turn now to China. The USCIRF report calls their religious liberties violations "severe." What are you hearing out of China?

THAMES: These are some of the darkest days in Chinese history when it comes to religious persecution, and we're seeing what this fully empowered government can do with the technology it has at hand to monitor the daily lives of all 1 billion citizens and then use that to coerce them to behave in ways that benefit the Chinese Communist Party and are at the detriment to human rights, to the detriment of religious freedom. 

So we've seen churches literally bulldozed the ground in southern China, we've seen the Chinese Communist Party perpetrating a genocide against Uyghur Muslims. And you know, the Biden and Trump administrations didn't agree on much, but they both determined this genocide is happening against Uyghur Muslims. And of course, the ongoing repression of the Tibetan Buddhists. 

And our policy choices are limited, because of the economic power and increasing military power that China has, it's it's going to take a concerted effort to use what influence the United States has its disposal to see those policies change, but it's going to be a very long and difficult road.

MAST: I know President Trump and President Xi Jinping are supposed to meet in April. What will you be watching for?

THAMES: Is our human rights at all part of the public agenda? Xi Jinping is very sensitive to that. I'm doubtful it will, and so what will we hear about it being raised privately? We have some high profile prisoner cases. There's a pastor that was recently jailed, there's the the owner of the Hong Kong newspaper that continues, was just sentenced to a very lengthy prison term. Will these cases be privately raised? It's gonna be hard for us to know, but we'll we'll see if they're released, and that would be evidence of U.S. government engagement. 

You know, it's only really Mr. Trump that can raise those cases and use his personal diplomacy to see these individuals released. Normal engagements at lower levels just won't work. And so will that summit lead to prisoners being freed? 

I'm skeptical of any major policy changes on human rights, but at least that would save two lives, and if we can get other people out, that's a great use of U.S. influence.

MAST: So as we wrap up, I want to step back, just big picture here. Religious liberty is not always part of the broader conversation in terms of the public's view of diplomacy. Tell me, why should it be?

THAMES: When religious freedom exists, we see the conditions for stable societies that are going to be productive. They're going to be not creating the drivers of extremism. They're not going to be a bad actor on the world stage. They're gonna be better partners for the United States, which is going to create business openings, it's going to create security partnerships. And where we don't see religious freedom, where we see religious persecution, all those positive indicators go in the opposite direction. 

Religious freedom is part of our story, it's who we are as a country. And I was always proud when I worked in different diplomatic capacities to know that the United States does more than any other country in the world to advance religious freedom for everybody. 

But being the best doesn't mean we're doing enough to confront this pandemic of persecution that's victimizing Christians and members of other faith communities around the world. So it's, we need to redouble our efforts, we need to find new ways to use the blessings of liberty and prosperity that we've been given to help address these drivers of conflict, these drivers of mass migration, these drivers of terrorism, because it makes America safer, stronger and more secure, and it reflects who we are as a people.

MAST: Knox Thames is a former Special Advisor for religious minorities with the State Department. He is soon to be the new executive director at the Center for Global and Religious Freedom at Dallas Baptist University. 

Knox, thank you so much for your time.

THAMES: It's my pleasure to be with you.

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