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Ask the Editor: Cloud of witnesses

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WORLD Radio - Ask the Editor: Cloud of witnesses

God calls His people to remember His faithfulness while keeping eyes fixed on Christ


Saint Anthony’s Chapel in Pittsburgh, Pa. Wikimedia Commons / Photo by Giovanni Guida

Editor's note: The following text is a transcript of a podcast story. To listen to the story, click on the arrow beneath the headline above.

MYRNA BROWN, HOST: Today is Friday, September 5th. Good morning! This is The World and Everything in It from listener-supported WORLD Radio. I’m Myrna Brown.

LINDSAY MAST, HOST: And I’m Lindsay Mast. Finally today, Ask the Editor. WORLD Executive Producer Paul Butler is here now with an inside look at why we chose to run a recent story.

PAUL BUTLER, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: As an amateur historian and documentary filmmaker, one of my favorite portions of the Old Testament is from Joshua chapters 3 and 4.

After 40 years in the wilderness, the Children of Israel are finally entering the land of promise. The priests are told to stand in the middle of the Jordan River with the Ark of the Covenant. When they enter the water, the Jordan River responds much like the Red Sea had done four decades earlier. God causes the seasonally high river to stop flowing, and the people cross over on dry ground. But before the priests exit the river, a man from each tribe is commanded to take a large stone from near where the priests are standing and carry those rocks to their campsite: their first site inside the Promised Land. An area later known as Gilgal.

God tells Joshua this pile of stones will be a sign for those who will come after them. Evidence for their children and grandchildren of what God had miraculously done there. These stones—or ebenim—were to be a memorial for the nation forever.

When writing any history, researchers of course comb through original documents, diaries, and oral histories. But another important thread of research surrounds what’s known as ephemera. These are physical fragments that give researchers an insight into the interests, values, and culture of a subject or particular time. Ephemera is the junk drawer of historical research…fragments that on their own don’t tell much of a story, but when considered together, a vivid picture often emerges. They are informal monuments to the events of history.

That brings me to some criticism we received after last month’s feature on a Catholic Church in Pittsburg that has one of the largest collections of relics in the world, second only to the Vatican itself.

A handful of listeners expressed concern with what they saw as a lack of clarity and Biblical objectivity in our reporting. Many said we should have more clearly stated that those who venerate relics are participating in idolatry.

One listener who didn’t want her name mentioned writes: “from a Protestant perspective, I believe relics to be worthless, and have no Christian value.”

Les Alsterlund from Minneapolis suggests that focusing on relics “...takes away from [God’s] glory and puts it on some relic or a person for living a good life when we should be glorifying and worship[ping] God alone.” In his feedback, he asked: “What’s the point of this story?”

As the producer of The World and Everything in It, and the Executive Producer for WORLD Radio, let me tie all these threads together and briefly explain why we approved the story and included it in our program.

Hebrews chapter 11 includes what many call “The Hall of Faith.” A significant list of faithful and righteous saints who fill the pages of the Old Testament. There is Biblical precedent to remember those who have gone before us, not to elevate their righteousness, but to elevate the work of God in the world through them. The author of Hebrews goes on to refer to them as a great cloud of witnesses, and as we consider them, we are to lay aside every weight and sin that ensnares us—just like they did.

Now to be clear, the author goes on to say in Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2, that we are to look to Jesus, as the author and finisher of our faith. He is to be our focus so that helps know what to do with the previous chapter. As we consider the saints of old, the benefit comes in how they point us to the savior and secondarily, instruct us on how to live in this world as we do.

And that brings me back to our report. The primary point of the story was not a warning against idolatry—which many thought should have been the emphasis. I approved the story because I believe there is a place for remembering the faithful since the birth of the church, particularly the martyrs. I think of the Apostle Paul who encouraged the church in Corinth to follow his example of following Christ’s example.

Perhaps our story did not go as far as many wished, but I will say that the second voice in Emma Eicher’s story did point out that the veneration of relics is rooted in Roman paganism. He also observed that many everyday Catholics are likely doing much more than just honoring the relics.

We thought of it not as promoting Catholicism per se, but as an opportunity for Protestants to consider the ephemera of our faith, material reminders of the many faithful who make up a cloud of witnesses who preceded us and laid down their lives in service of the King and His Kingdom.

Returning to the Biblical site of Gilgal and the stone pile monument for a moment, in Hosea we learn that Judah eventually made that area a center of great idolatry, they forgot God and the story of His faithfulness that a pile of stones was there to testify to.

May we not forget.

I’m Paul Butler.


WORLD Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of WORLD Radio programming is the audio record.

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