Responding to Neil Evans post: while I understand the value and command to forgive, God tells us that we must confess our sins and repent. And yet articles on forgiveness say we must forgive others even if they do not seek forgiveness. So we are to be more forgiving than God is by forgiving in the absence of confession and repentance?
dudleysharp
SteveG:It seems clear the death penalty may offer more encouragement for transformation, in the context of the eternal. See below.We have no idea of the sincerity, depth or reach of these murderers sorrow, renorse and possible salavation.That is between them and God. We just don't know.I don't believe any of these executed murderers made any effort to reach out to any of the murder vicitm's survivors, prior to the day of their executions, if they did it then.I believe all of them, fought, tooth and nail, to avoid the death penalty until the very end, in the hope of avoiding their just sanction.Can murderers receive eternal salavation? Of course. Can non criminals be condemned? Of course.The Death Penalty: Mercy, Expiation, Redemption & Salvationhttp://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-death-penalty-mercy-expiation.html
dudleysharp
The crimes of Beunka Adams Summary of incident: On 09/02/2002 in Cherokee County, Texas, Adams entered a convenience store and robbed a twenty-four year old white male and shot him one time in the head. Adams then attempted to rob, kidnap and sexually assault two other adult white females. Adams then fled the scene with an unknown amount of money. On 2 September 2002, Adams, then 19, and Richard Cobb, 18, entered a convenience store in Rusk in east Texas. Cobb was carrying a 12-gauge shotgun, and both men were wearing masks. Candace Driver and Nikki Dement1 were working in the store. The only other person in the store was Kenneth Vandever, a 24-year-old mentally challenged man who frequented the store as a customer, sometimes helping clean and take out trash. Adams ordered Driver, Dement, and Vandever to the front of the store and demanded the money in the register. After the women complied, Adams demanded the keys to a Cadillac parked in front of the store. Driver, who had borrowed the car to drive to work, retrieved the keys from the back room. Adams then ordered the three victims into the Cadillac with Cobb and himself. Adams drove south on US Highway 69. As they were driving, Dement, who had gone to school with Adams, said, "I know you, don't I?" Adams answered "Yes" and removed his mask. At some point, Adams turned off the road and drove the vehicle into a pea patch near Alto. The group exited the car. With Cobb holding the shotgun, Adams ordered Driver and Vandever into the trunk. He then led Dement away from the car and raped her. He then came back to the car with Dement, released Driver and Vandever from the trunk, and told the victims that he and Cobb were waiting for Adams' friends to arrive. He allowed the victims to begin walking away. A few moments later, Adams reconsidered, saying that he was afraid the victims would reach a house before he and Cobb could get away. He and Cobb made the three victims kneel on the ground. They tied the women's hands behind their backs using their shirts. They left Vandever unrestrained. They then stood behind the victims for several minutes and had a discussion. Adams then returned to the victims and ordered Vandever, who had stood back up, to kneel behind the women. Driver later testified that Vandever said that "it was time for him to take his medicine, and he was ready to go home." Suddenly, there was a gunshot. Adams asked, "Did we get anybody?" Driver answered, "No." A moment later, there was another shot. Vandever cried out, "They shot me." A third shot struck Dement in the left shoulder. When Dement fell forward, Driver did too, pretending to be hit. Adams, carrying the shotgun, approached Driver and asked if she was bleeding. Driver did not answer, pretending to be dead. Adams then said, "Are you bleeding? You better answer me. I'll shoot you in the face if you don't answer me." Driver answered, "No, no, I'm not bleeding." Adams then fired the shotgun next to her face. The pellets hit her lip. She again pretended to be dead. Adams and Cobb then turned to Dement and asked her the same questions. Dement also feigned death as both men kicked her for about a minute. Adams grabbed Dement's hair and held up her head while one of the men shined a lighter on her face to see if she was still alive. Dement continued to feign death. Cobb said, "She's dead. Let's go." The men then left. After Adams and Cobb left, Candace Driver, who sustained only minor injuries, ran to a nearby house. Nikki Dement was taken to a hospital via helicopter with injuries including a broken shoulder blade, broken ribs, and collapsed lung. When police arrived at the pea patch, Kenneth Vandever was dead from a shotgun wound to his chest. Adams confessed to raping Dement, but denied firing the gun. Prosecutors argued that while the surviving witnesses could not tell which assailant pulled the trigger on Vandever and Dement, Adams was seen holding the shotgun immediately afterward, and he did fire it at Driver. Furthermore, the state depicted Adams as the leader who gave all of the orders to Cobb as well as to the victims, with Cobb heard speaking only once: "She's dead. Let's go." Under Texas law, a jury can find a defendant guilty of capital murder for participating in the crime, regardless of whether he personally inflicted the fatal injury. Adams and Cobb had participated in two other aggravated robberies.
Neil Evans
"Olasky, as so many other death penalty opponents, wants you to think of the murderers, only and forget the crimes." This strikes me as both an inaccurate and unfair statement. The crimes are presented in lurid detail in all sorts of media. Our culture even uses the crimes for our entertainment. That unredeemed human beings are evil ought to be one of the most obvious things about us. I am thankful that the vile thoughts and actions of my life are not to be posted.It is probably true that the ongoing pain of the victims of violent crime are not widely broadcast. But I doubt that more exposure would be of any real comfort to them. And I also doubt that the punishment of offenders is of much real comfort to victims either.
dudleysharp
Olasky, as so many other death penalty opponents, wants you to think of the murderers, only and forget the crimes.
Neil Evans
We sometimes make jokes about God needing to use a 2x4 to get our attention. Sometimes He uses it to capture the heart of a perpetrator of evil. Sometimes He uses evil to capture the heart of a seeming victim. Our greatest blindness is in not seeing that "there is none righteous, no not one;" except The One Who paid the death penalty for all who would admit their guilt and seek God's Forgiveness. Perhaps one of the conversations of Heaven will be the variety of 2x4's God used to get us there.This has been a very thought provoking series. Thank you, Marvin Olasky.
BJH8470
It seems to me the death penalty was a great thing for most of these folks. Many came to Christ, knowing their time on this earth was short. Praise God for Texas' use of the death penalty.
dudleysharp
Mr. Olasky:I am hoping that you will look up and post the vile crimes that all of these murderers committed, inclusive of the names of the murder victimsI hope that you feel such an obligation.
dudleysharp
The known crimes of Elroy Chester "In my 37 years as a policeman, I've never met a man so evil in my life," said Port Arthur Police Chief Mark Blanton, who was outside the Huntsville prison with several dozen police and firefighters from the city about 75 miles east of Houston. Ryman, a decorated Port Arthur firefighter, was killed in February 1998 when he interrupted Chester as he sexually assaulted Ryman's two teenage nieces during a break-in at their home. Chester, who was on probation at the time, was arrested soon after and subsequently pleaded guilty to killing the 38-year-old firefighter. DNA evidence tied Chester to the rapes. Ballistics tests matched his gun to the slayings of Ryman and four others. The gun was stolen in one of 25 burglaries in Port Arthur attributed to Chester. Chester also confessed to killing 78-year-old John Henry Sepeda and Etta Mae Stallings, 87, during burglaries. He told police he stalked Cheryl DeLeon, 40, then fatally beat her with his gun as she arrived home from work. And he admitted to shooting his 35-year-old brother-in-law, Albert Bolden Jr.,in the head. Blanton said with Chester's death, "I will know he won't be able to prey on anybody ... or take somebody else's life."
Neil Evans
I am familiar with the terms, but not with the way in which you use them. I believe your comments represent a misunderstanding of Biblical forgiveness. The basis upon which God forgives us is the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not the efficacy of our repentance. We enter into His forgiveness by faith. Faith confesses (says the same thing) what God says about Himself and about ourselves.We are not saved by an accurate accounting of and repentance for our specific sins. We are saved simply, and profoundly, by our admission of the fact that we are sinners in need of God's mercy. While God is glad for our repentance because it represents the turning of our heart to His, He is not impressed by it in the sense that it earns us anything or makes us deserving of anything from Him. We have opportunities every day to either expect repentance or give forgiveness for the multitude of offenses that we experience. To focus on the unrepented offenses of others is consuming, but to forgive the offenders, on the basis of the fact that God in Christ has forgiven me, is liberating. Refusing to forgive those who sin against us allows their sin to control our joy. Actually, if we take at face value what Jesus said about hating = murder, then it is very likely that the family and friends of murder victims are guilty of murdering the murderer of their loved one. Our sin nature is an awful condition from which no amount of repentance can deliver us. "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy." (Titus 2) Like many other things, it is possible to make repentance a righteous work.
dudleysharp
If there are terms which you do not understand, your response should have been to look them up from a religious reference source, which are many and on line. It is important. Do it. You write: "Just as God does not base His forgiveness upon our repentance, neither should we base our forgiveness of others upon their repentance." Truly astounding. Are all just blindly forgiven with no conditions? You write: The purpose of person-to-person repentance / forgiveness is not to erase either the offense or all of its consequences. The purpose of repentance / forgiveness is to heal relationships. To withhold either repentance or forgiveness deprives of healing primarily the withholder." Nothing can erase the offense or its aftermath. Repentance is huge. It requires a confession of guilt and harm and a change or heart, whereby the offender makes a sincere effort and reform. Forgiveness is based upon that exchange. But, again, the moral authority to forgive, is based within the party harmed. In the case of murder, the victim is dead. You write: "The mandate of capital punishment makes a statement about the characters of God and man. The way capital punishment is carried out makes a statement about the culture employing it." I agree. Forgiveness and Murderhttp://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/10/forgiveness-and-murder-compiled-and.html "The Sin of Forgiveness", Dennis Pragerhttp://metaphysicalperegrine.blogspot.com/2009/02/sin-of-forgiveness.html "Forgiveness Comes Cheap", Pamela Fitzsimmonshttp://www.heldtoanswer.com/2011/07/forgiveness-comes-cheap/ "TOLERANCE, UNDERSTANDING, AND FORGIVENESS", GARY W. SUMMERShttp://www.spiritualperspectives.org/articles/documents/forgive.html "The More Given, The Less Earned", Dennis Pragerhttp://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/04/21/the_more_given_the_less_earned_96085.html
dudleysharp
Neil:Romano Amerio: Some opposing capital punishment ". . . go on to assert that a life should not be ended because that would remove the possibility of making expiation, is to ignore the great truth that capital punishment is itself expiatory." "In a humanistic religion expiation would of course be primarily the converting of a man to other men. On that view, time is needed to effect a reformation, and the time available should not be shortened." "In God's religion, on the other hand, expiation is primarily a recognition of the divine majesty and lordship, which can be and should be recognized at every moment, in accordance with the principle of the concentration of one's moral life." "Amerio on capital punishment ", Chapter XXVI, 187. The death penalty, from the book Iota Unum, May 25, 2007 ,www.domid.blogspot.com/2007/05/amerio-on-capital-punishment.html
dudleysharp
Cheri:I find it odd that some Christians do not believe there are conditons on forgiveness.Do they not realize how huge the conditions are?If forgiveness were not highly conditonal why did Gog sacrifice His only Son as the conditon for the forgiveness of men?If forgiveness had no conditons, there would be no requirement for Jesus and His Passion.The Christian message is that your eternal forgiveness is conditonal upon the sacrifice of Christ.
dudleysharp
Neil: Excellent line of inquiry. Thank you. Earthly forgiveness is provided by the harmed party. In the case of the innocent murder victim, they are dead and unable to provide forgiveness on earth. If souls can forgive earthly sins, that is a different issue, which I cannot address. The thinking behind "there can be no atonement for murder." is that you cannot repair the murder - that murdered innocent is gone from earth and cannot be brought back. There are other important theological concerns, such as expiation and eternal forgiveness which do apply. You ask: "I am curious. Did King David, the Apostle Paul, even the murderers of Jesus live out their days on earth unforgiven?" And if there is no atonement for murder are they not redeemed today?" There are multiple answers. 1) All are subject to eternal forgiveness, from God and such forgiveness can come at any time. 2) When I say earthly forgiveness, I am speaking of earthly forgiveness as provided by humans. '3) Although atonement for murder is not possible, that cannot preclude eternal forgiveness, which is always available, as a matter of Christian principle, through ones relationship with the Trinity. 4) I cannot say who is forgiven or not, as that is between that individual person and God. I presume David's and Paul's forgiveness on earth and later, I suspect some of Jesus's murderers, be they direct or indirect, may have been forgiven and others not, depending upon what was within their hearts. You ask: "And what did Jesus mean when He prayed: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do?" And how did The Father answer Jesus prayer? I always thought this was one of the most complex of the biblical texts, because God already knew that they knew not what they had done, because He is God, so why would Jesus make that request. I think it is that there were many involved in the execution that had no idea that the execution was wrong, but that they were carrying out a regular execution, that there was no evil in their hearts and that Jesus was separating those that knew not what they had done from those who were complicit in evil in Jesus' execution, as well as those who had stayed righteous. For this there were many examples, here are two. An example, which was given: "The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, "Surely this was a righteous man." "And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God;"' There are more, specific examples, as well. I view forgiveness as a gift, as do you, it just isn't free. There are conditions for it. It has to be sincere, heartfelt and asking for forgiveness with true remorse, with a commitment to change. Just earthly sanctions and both earthly and eternal forgiveness are all important, but with different foundations.
Responding to Neil Evans post: while I understand the value and command to forgive, God tells us that we must confess our sins and repent. And yet articles on forgiveness say we must forgive others even if they do not seek forgiveness. So we are to be more forgiving than God is by forgiving in the absence of confession and repentance?
SteveG:It seems clear the death penalty may offer more encouragement for transformation, in the context of the eternal. See below.We have no idea of the sincerity, depth or reach of these murderers sorrow, renorse and possible salavation.That is between them and God. We just don't know.I don't believe any of these executed murderers made any effort to reach out to any of the murder vicitm's survivors, prior to the day of their executions, if they did it then.I believe all of them, fought, tooth and nail, to avoid the death penalty until the very end, in the hope of avoiding their just sanction.Can murderers receive eternal salavation? Of course. Can non criminals be condemned? Of course.The Death Penalty: Mercy, Expiation, Redemption & Salvationhttp://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-death-penalty-mercy-expiation.html
The crimes of Beunka Adams Summary of incident: On 09/02/2002 in Cherokee County, Texas, Adams entered a convenience store and robbed a twenty-four year old white male and shot him one time in the head. Adams then attempted to rob, kidnap and sexually assault two other adult white females. Adams then fled the scene with an unknown amount of money. On 2 September 2002, Adams, then 19, and Richard Cobb, 18, entered a convenience store in Rusk in east Texas. Cobb was carrying a 12-gauge shotgun, and both men were wearing masks. Candace Driver and Nikki Dement1 were working in the store. The only other person in the store was Kenneth Vandever, a 24-year-old mentally challenged man who frequented the store as a customer, sometimes helping clean and take out trash. Adams ordered Driver, Dement, and Vandever to the front of the store and demanded the money in the register. After the women complied, Adams demanded the keys to a Cadillac parked in front of the store. Driver, who had borrowed the car to drive to work, retrieved the keys from the back room. Adams then ordered the three victims into the Cadillac with Cobb and himself. Adams drove south on US Highway 69. As they were driving, Dement, who had gone to school with Adams, said, "I know you, don't I?" Adams answered "Yes" and removed his mask. At some point, Adams turned off the road and drove the vehicle into a pea patch near Alto. The group exited the car. With Cobb holding the shotgun, Adams ordered Driver and Vandever into the trunk. He then led Dement away from the car and raped her. He then came back to the car with Dement, released Driver and Vandever from the trunk, and told the victims that he and Cobb were waiting for Adams' friends to arrive. He allowed the victims to begin walking away. A few moments later, Adams reconsidered, saying that he was afraid the victims would reach a house before he and Cobb could get away. He and Cobb made the three victims kneel on the ground. They tied the women's hands behind their backs using their shirts. They left Vandever unrestrained. They then stood behind the victims for several minutes and had a discussion. Adams then returned to the victims and ordered Vandever, who had stood back up, to kneel behind the women. Driver later testified that Vandever said that "it was time for him to take his medicine, and he was ready to go home." Suddenly, there was a gunshot. Adams asked, "Did we get anybody?" Driver answered, "No." A moment later, there was another shot. Vandever cried out, "They shot me." A third shot struck Dement in the left shoulder. When Dement fell forward, Driver did too, pretending to be hit. Adams, carrying the shotgun, approached Driver and asked if she was bleeding. Driver did not answer, pretending to be dead. Adams then said, "Are you bleeding? You better answer me. I'll shoot you in the face if you don't answer me." Driver answered, "No, no, I'm not bleeding." Adams then fired the shotgun next to her face. The pellets hit her lip. She again pretended to be dead. Adams and Cobb then turned to Dement and asked her the same questions. Dement also feigned death as both men kicked her for about a minute. Adams grabbed Dement's hair and held up her head while one of the men shined a lighter on her face to see if she was still alive. Dement continued to feign death. Cobb said, "She's dead. Let's go." The men then left. After Adams and Cobb left, Candace Driver, who sustained only minor injuries, ran to a nearby house. Nikki Dement was taken to a hospital via helicopter with injuries including a broken shoulder blade, broken ribs, and collapsed lung. When police arrived at the pea patch, Kenneth Vandever was dead from a shotgun wound to his chest. Adams confessed to raping Dement, but denied firing the gun. Prosecutors argued that while the surviving witnesses could not tell which assailant pulled the trigger on Vandever and Dement, Adams was seen holding the shotgun immediately afterward, and he did fire it at Driver. Furthermore, the state depicted Adams as the leader who gave all of the orders to Cobb as well as to the victims, with Cobb heard speaking only once: "She's dead. Let's go." Under Texas law, a jury can find a defendant guilty of capital murder for participating in the crime, regardless of whether he personally inflicted the fatal injury. Adams and Cobb had participated in two other aggravated robberies.
"Olasky, as so many other death penalty opponents, wants you to think of the murderers, only and forget the crimes." This strikes me as both an inaccurate and unfair statement. The crimes are presented in lurid detail in all sorts of media. Our culture even uses the crimes for our entertainment. That unredeemed human beings are evil ought to be one of the most obvious things about us. I am thankful that the vile thoughts and actions of my life are not to be posted.It is probably true that the ongoing pain of the victims of violent crime are not widely broadcast. But I doubt that more exposure would be of any real comfort to them. And I also doubt that the punishment of offenders is of much real comfort to victims either.
Olasky, as so many other death penalty opponents, wants you to think of the murderers, only and forget the crimes.
We sometimes make jokes about God needing to use a 2x4 to get our attention. Sometimes He uses it to capture the heart of a perpetrator of evil. Sometimes He uses evil to capture the heart of a seeming victim. Our greatest blindness is in not seeing that "there is none righteous, no not one;" except The One Who paid the death penalty for all who would admit their guilt and seek God's Forgiveness. Perhaps one of the conversations of Heaven will be the variety of 2x4's God used to get us there.This has been a very thought provoking series. Thank you, Marvin Olasky.
It seems to me the death penalty was a great thing for most of these folks. Many came to Christ, knowing their time on this earth was short. Praise God for Texas' use of the death penalty.
Mr. Olasky:I am hoping that you will look up and post the vile crimes that all of these murderers committed, inclusive of the names of the murder victimsI hope that you feel such an obligation.
The known crimes of Elroy Chester "In my 37 years as a policeman, I've never met a man so evil in my life," said Port Arthur Police Chief Mark Blanton, who was outside the Huntsville prison with several dozen police and firefighters from the city about 75 miles east of Houston. Ryman, a decorated Port Arthur firefighter, was killed in February 1998 when he interrupted Chester as he sexually assaulted Ryman's two teenage nieces during a break-in at their home. Chester, who was on probation at the time, was arrested soon after and subsequently pleaded guilty to killing the 38-year-old firefighter. DNA evidence tied Chester to the rapes. Ballistics tests matched his gun to the slayings of Ryman and four others. The gun was stolen in one of 25 burglaries in Port Arthur attributed to Chester. Chester also confessed to killing 78-year-old John Henry Sepeda and Etta Mae Stallings, 87, during burglaries. He told police he stalked Cheryl DeLeon, 40, then fatally beat her with his gun as she arrived home from work. And he admitted to shooting his 35-year-old brother-in-law, Albert Bolden Jr.,in the head. Blanton said with Chester's death, "I will know he won't be able to prey on anybody ... or take somebody else's life."
I am familiar with the terms, but not with the way in which you use them. I believe your comments represent a misunderstanding of Biblical forgiveness. The basis upon which God forgives us is the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not the efficacy of our repentance. We enter into His forgiveness by faith. Faith confesses (says the same thing) what God says about Himself and about ourselves.We are not saved by an accurate accounting of and repentance for our specific sins. We are saved simply, and profoundly, by our admission of the fact that we are sinners in need of God's mercy. While God is glad for our repentance because it represents the turning of our heart to His, He is not impressed by it in the sense that it earns us anything or makes us deserving of anything from Him. We have opportunities every day to either expect repentance or give forgiveness for the multitude of offenses that we experience. To focus on the unrepented offenses of others is consuming, but to forgive the offenders, on the basis of the fact that God in Christ has forgiven me, is liberating. Refusing to forgive those who sin against us allows their sin to control our joy. Actually, if we take at face value what Jesus said about hating = murder, then it is very likely that the family and friends of murder victims are guilty of murdering the murderer of their loved one. Our sin nature is an awful condition from which no amount of repentance can deliver us. "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy." (Titus 2) Like many other things, it is possible to make repentance a righteous work.
If there are terms which you do not understand, your response should have been to look them up from a religious reference source, which are many and on line. It is important. Do it. You write: "Just as God does not base His forgiveness upon our repentance, neither should we base our forgiveness of others upon their repentance." Truly astounding. Are all just blindly forgiven with no conditions? You write: The purpose of person-to-person repentance / forgiveness is not to erase either the offense or all of its consequences. The purpose of repentance / forgiveness is to heal relationships. To withhold either repentance or forgiveness deprives of healing primarily the withholder." Nothing can erase the offense or its aftermath. Repentance is huge. It requires a confession of guilt and harm and a change or heart, whereby the offender makes a sincere effort and reform. Forgiveness is based upon that exchange. But, again, the moral authority to forgive, is based within the party harmed. In the case of murder, the victim is dead. You write: "The mandate of capital punishment makes a statement about the characters of God and man. The way capital punishment is carried out makes a statement about the culture employing it." I agree. Forgiveness and Murderhttp://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/10/forgiveness-and-murder-compiled-and.html "The Sin of Forgiveness", Dennis Pragerhttp://metaphysicalperegrine.blogspot.com/2009/02/sin-of-forgiveness.html "Forgiveness Comes Cheap", Pamela Fitzsimmonshttp://www.heldtoanswer.com/2011/07/forgiveness-comes-cheap/ "TOLERANCE, UNDERSTANDING, AND FORGIVENESS", GARY W. SUMMERShttp://www.spiritualperspectives.org/articles/documents/forgive.html "The More Given, The Less Earned", Dennis Pragerhttp://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/04/21/the_more_given_the_less_earned_96085.html
Neil:Romano Amerio: Some opposing capital punishment ". . . go on to assert that a life should not be ended because that would remove the possibility of making expiation, is to ignore the great truth that capital punishment is itself expiatory." "In a humanistic religion expiation would of course be primarily the converting of a man to other men. On that view, time is needed to effect a reformation, and the time available should not be shortened." "In God's religion, on the other hand, expiation is primarily a recognition of the divine majesty and lordship, which can be and should be recognized at every moment, in accordance with the principle of the concentration of one's moral life." "Amerio on capital punishment ", Chapter XXVI, 187. The death penalty, from the book Iota Unum, May 25, 2007 ,www.domid.blogspot.com/2007/05/amerio-on-capital-punishment.html
Cheri:I find it odd that some Christians do not believe there are conditons on forgiveness.Do they not realize how huge the conditions are?If forgiveness were not highly conditonal why did Gog sacrifice His only Son as the conditon for the forgiveness of men?If forgiveness had no conditons, there would be no requirement for Jesus and His Passion.The Christian message is that your eternal forgiveness is conditonal upon the sacrifice of Christ.
Neil: Excellent line of inquiry. Thank you. Earthly forgiveness is provided by the harmed party. In the case of the innocent murder victim, they are dead and unable to provide forgiveness on earth. If souls can forgive earthly sins, that is a different issue, which I cannot address. The thinking behind "there can be no atonement for murder." is that you cannot repair the murder - that murdered innocent is gone from earth and cannot be brought back. There are other important theological concerns, such as expiation and eternal forgiveness which do apply. You ask: "I am curious. Did King David, the Apostle Paul, even the murderers of Jesus live out their days on earth unforgiven?" And if there is no atonement for murder are they not redeemed today?" There are multiple answers. 1) All are subject to eternal forgiveness, from God and such forgiveness can come at any time. 2) When I say earthly forgiveness, I am speaking of earthly forgiveness as provided by humans. '3) Although atonement for murder is not possible, that cannot preclude eternal forgiveness, which is always available, as a matter of Christian principle, through ones relationship with the Trinity. 4) I cannot say who is forgiven or not, as that is between that individual person and God. I presume David's and Paul's forgiveness on earth and later, I suspect some of Jesus's murderers, be they direct or indirect, may have been forgiven and others not, depending upon what was within their hearts. You ask: "And what did Jesus mean when He prayed: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do?" And how did The Father answer Jesus prayer? I always thought this was one of the most complex of the biblical texts, because God already knew that they knew not what they had done, because He is God, so why would Jesus make that request. I think it is that there were many involved in the execution that had no idea that the execution was wrong, but that they were carrying out a regular execution, that there was no evil in their hearts and that Jesus was separating those that knew not what they had done from those who were complicit in evil in Jesus' execution, as well as those who had stayed righteous. For this there were many examples, here are two. An example, which was given: "The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, "Surely this was a righteous man." "And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God;"' There are more, specific examples, as well. I view forgiveness as a gift, as do you, it just isn't free. There are conditions for it. It has to be sincere, heartfelt and asking for forgiveness with true remorse, with a commitment to change. Just earthly sanctions and both earthly and eternal forgiveness are all important, but with different foundations.